Dec. 30, 2025

101-Coercive Control, The Invisible Abuse with Dr. Lisa

What if the most dangerous abuse leaves no bruises? In this episode of 1 in 3, Ingrid is joined by Dr. Lisa to unpack coercive control—a form of abuse that often hides behind charm, faith language, and “helpful” or respected personas. We explore how relationships that begin with love bombing, future faking, and devotion slowly shift into gaslighting, DARVO, isolation, and financial dependence, causing even the most capable people to doubt their own reality. This conversation breaks down why f...

What if the most dangerous abuse leaves no bruises?

In this episode of 1 in 3, Ingrid is joined by Dr. Lisa to unpack coercive control—a form of abuse that often hides behind charm, faith language, and “helpful” or respected personas. We explore how relationships that begin with love bombing, future faking, and devotion slowly shift into gaslighting, DARVO, isolation, and financial dependence, causing even the most capable people to doubt their own reality.

This conversation breaks down why focusing on labels like narcissist or sociopath can distract from what truly matters: patterns of behavior over time. Dr. Lisa explains why couples counseling is often unsafe in abusive relationships, how therapeutic language can be weaponized, and how spiritual gaslighting keeps survivors over-functioning, compliant, and silent.

Grounded in lived experience, we name the tactics of coercive abuse—including isolation disguised as romance, submission framed as faith, and love bombing used as data mining. Most importantly, we map a way forward. You’ll learn how to recognize coercive control, document behavioral patterns, rebuild financial clarity, and measure real change through sustained actions—not apologies.

Whether you’re staying, questioning, or planning an exit, you deserve informed choices, safety, and a life aligned with your values.

If this episode resonates, share it with someone who needs language for what they’re experiencing. Subscribe, leave a review, and help others find these life-saving conversations.

Dr. Lisa’s links:

https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/dr-lisa-dawn-fox/

https://www.shadowandsoul.com/

https://www.instagram.com/shadowandsoul_

https://www.linkedin.com/in/drlisadawnfox/

1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.

Support the show

If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.

Contact 1 in 3:

Send your emails to 1in3podcast@gmail.com
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Check out the website https://www.1in3podcast.com/

Thank you for listening!

Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe

00:47 - Welcome And Guest Background

03:19 - From Surgeon To Advocate And Coach

06:50 - Discovering Abuse And Preparing To Leave

11:26 - Defining Abuse Beyond Violence

12:42 - Why Diagnoses Are Rare And Misleading

15:35 - The Trap Of Couples Counseling

18:34 - Entitlement, Patriarchy, And Control

22:53 - How Coercive Control Shows Up At Home

28:28 - Love Bombing, Future Faking, Data Mining

33:38 - Isolation And Alienation Tactics

40:13 - Financial Control And Dependency

45:39 - Spiritual Gaslighting In Church Settings

50:35 - DARVO And Circular Conversations

55:43 - Gut Instinct, Dissonance, And Health

01:01:03 - Reframing Reality In Recovery

01:04:08 - Infidelity As Coercive Control

01:07:45 - Coaching Approach And Global Work

WEBVTT

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Hi, Warriors.

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Welcome to One in Three.

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I'm your host, Ingrid.

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Leaving an abusive relationship is never simple, especially when that relationship involved a narcissist or coercive control.

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My guest today, Dr.

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Lisa, specializes in exactly that.

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She's here to share insight and practical guidance to help you better understand and navigate the complexities of recovery.

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Here's Dr.

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Lisa.

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Hi, Dr.

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Lisa.

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Thank you for joining me.

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And welcome to One in Three.

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Thank you, Ingrid.

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Thank you for having me.

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It's really a privilege, and I'm really excited to be here with you today.

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I am so excited for this as well.

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So before we get into our conversation, can you just give us a little bit of a background so we get to know you some?

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Hmm, okay.

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Well, um, this is kind of my third career.

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If anybody had ever told me I'd have three careers in my lifetime, I would never would have believed them.

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Um I am a retired diabetic limb salvage and wound treatment specialist.

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I did that for the first 10 years of my career.

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I did that as a single mom for the first five years, getting through medical school and getting through surgical residency.

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So I always tell people my girl and I went to school together.

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Um, it was really fun going to UC San Diego to visit when she was considering colleges.

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She's now much older, but we went into the chemistry um lecture hall.

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And it's huge, right?

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It's a UC system.

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And I said, Hey baby, you do you do you recognize this room?

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You've been here.

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She's all mom, I've never been here.

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I go, yeah, you have.

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She goes, Mama, this is the first time I've been on this campus.

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I go, no, it's not.

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You did your whole, I did my whole last quarter with you here.

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We sat in this room.

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My last class was chemistry.

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And I would put you in the sling and just sit right in the back of the classroom with you.

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So yeah, you've been in this, you've been in this lecture hall.

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Um, so it's kind of fun.

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It was kind of fun going through all that with her and letting her see as a woman, we can do all things.

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There are just seasons in which we can do them all well, right?

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So I did that for my first 10 years.

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I retired in 2006.

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I have four children.

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Um, my two middle uh needed some extra help with their um learning challenges.

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They both had learning challenges.

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One was more severe than the other, and I just had to make a decision at that time.

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I couldn't do a full surgical practice and meet their needs.

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And it wasn't a job for a nanny or a grandma.

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It was a job for mom.

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And I realized that there were many of me, well, not many, I'm gonna say three at that time in the Southwest region that did diabetic limb salvage and wound treatment.

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But there was only one of me at home that could do what I could do.

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So I closed my practice and drove my charts over to my good friend and said, listen, I sent out a letter.

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They know I'm retiring and take good care of my patients.

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And then for the next 15 years, I stayed home with all of my kids.

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Um, helped my my third, who um didn't understand the spoken word when he was born.

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All we were were Peanuts' parents.

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So it was very intensive therapy for him.

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And I can say I would never, people go, do you wish you had never retired?

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I go, no, I know that boy just graduated from USC a few years ago and designs and builds sets all over the world.

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Like he's a really beautiful human being.

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All four of my kids are beautiful human beings.

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But during that time, I got involved with an evangelical megachurch in Southern California and spent my first five years in MOPS in leadership, which a lot of you in the Christian world know as mothers of preschoolers.

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And after that, I was asked to launch a Bible study and a women's leadership program that I knew nothing about.

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I'm a surgeon.

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I don't know anything about leadership.

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I don't know anything of anything about anything.

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And I was like, well, okay.

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And by the grace of God, it survived the first year.

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And it was a really beautiful experience.

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There were 160 women every year, and they would come in and we would basically apply God's word and figure out what they were supposed to do with their lives, because many of us in that circle are raised to believe that it's to be a mom and a wife is your highest calling.

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And to have them be reoriented that no, as a Christ follower, your highest calling is to be an image bearer of Christ.

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And if that plays out, that you're a mother and a wife, then yeah, then that's where I guess she would say that your highest calling is.

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But we all have a calling in this world, and we're all called and born at a time of this, because it's a specific work only for us to do.

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And as I was walking through that, there were women that were coming to me each year that were really in bad marriages, like abusive marriages, that I would be having to walk with them, with the church through and realize the church was providing support for them.

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There came a point in my marriage where I realized that I had to make the decision to stay or go.

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And I had to start preparing to do so.

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And so I stepped away from women's leadership and I spent years preparing.

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And I finally came to a point where I let my husband know that it was time for us to separate and it was time for me to leave.

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And I can't talk too much about that on a public forum.

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All I'll say is that our passion is born from our ashes.

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Today I am now a narcissistic abuse and coercive control specialist.

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I'm a betrayal trauma-informed coach.

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It's what I do, it's what I love.

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I'm a domestic violence abuse specialist.

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I really don't like to use the word violence because it intimates to this world that someone has to put a hand on you.

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And most forms of abuse in this world never involve a bruise.

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They involve something much more insidious called coercive control, which is what I specialize in, and it's what I help women realize they are experiencing.

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Because most women that come to me don't understand that what is going on in their marriages isn't because of them, it's happening to them.

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And then the person that they started the relationship with was never a real person.

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No, and that is the really hardest part of the grieving with my clients is I let them know there will be no healing, there will be no movement forward unless two things are done.

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And one, that is grieving what you thought you had, because what you thought you had never existed.

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Right?

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Something was being presented to you, and that is not what the reality of your life was.

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And the second thing was is that you do, you do need to accept the reality of the circumstances in which you find yourself and which you were living, because unless we can live in that reality, unless we can align what happened to us with the reality of who was doing it to us, we can't move on.

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We're stuck.

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And it's very hard to reconcile.

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It's very hard to reconcile that the person that was meant to love, protect, provide for you, partner with you, that they were doing things to make you feel that you were less than, that you could find nothing better, that there was something wrong with you, that you had some sort of mental illness and you should consider being medicated, that your friends wouldn't understand that your family wasn't for you, that they are the only ones that are for you, and that's how it starts, is the alienation is very, very insidious, and it's one of the primary tools a coercive controller uses is to isolate you from your family and friends and your community.

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So the only person that you're relying on, the only person that you're looking to to see and reflect who you are is your partner.

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Right.

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And I definitely want to get into all the details of coercive control because there's a lot of misunderstandings there, and uh, you know, it is becoming part of the legal definition of domestic abuse in certain states and different countries across the world.

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So I want to focus a lot on that.

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But before we get into that, there are now not all of these personalities turn somebody into an abuser necessarily in a domestic situation, but there are a lot of personality disorders that are included with abusers.

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And those are psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissists.

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And I think there's a lot of confusion in between what those are and it in the healing aspects, sometimes it does help to understand what your abuser may have been diagnosed with.

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It I think it definitely uh helps or it stops minimizing the overuse of especially the word narcissist.

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I think a lot of people overuse that.

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And um, in that respect, I think it is important to understand what these personality disorders are and how they can uh influence what's happening to you.

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And maybe actually understanding what these personality personality disorders are, it may help somebody understand more the situation that they currently are in.

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So do you mind just going through each of those and explaining to us what those are and what that can mean for us?

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Absolutely, absolutely.

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You know, there are a lot, there's still a part of our our academics that say it, you know, unless you're licensed and qualified, you can't diagnose narcissism.

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And yet Dr.

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Romini just came out with a great book.

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Uh it isn't you, it isn't you, I think it's it isn't you.

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I could be wrong.

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Um, her latest book, and she's like, you know, people say that, yet when you're the person who's experienced it, you can look at the cluster of behaviors.

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And if the clusters of behaviors fit, well, isn't that how we usually assign a diagnosis to anybody is by a cluster of behaviors.

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And with narcissism and sociopathy and psychopathy, we that's what we're looking at.

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We're looking at a cluster of behaviors.

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And to be quite honest, very rarely is a narcissist, a psychopath, or a sociopath ever diagnosed because they don't ever think anything's wrong with them.

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So they don't ever, ever go in to get therapy, or let alone be diagnosed.

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And the closest that they'll get usually is marriage counseling.

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But the only reason they're showing up to marriage counseling is to make sure that the counselor knows how broken you are and what you're doing that you need to change to make the marriage better, so that you could have a good marriage, because they're they're an absolute beautiful individual and they're loving and kind and compassionate, and that's how they show up.

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And when we show up, we are reactive, we are upset, we are beyond being able to function because nobody that we've talked to about what's going on with us understands.

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And worse than that, it will be something where not only is your trauma being put upon you, but then because you're the person who's willing to do the work, the counselor then looks to you because you're the easy target to get to implement changes to try to make some movement in the marriage.

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And that's the problem with marriage counseling when you're married to one of these personality types.

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It's contraindicated.

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You should never go to couples counseling if you're married to one of these personality types, because they show up as very charismatic and caring, and all of the focus is put on you.

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And then you end up experiencing therapeutic abuse on top of the narcissistic abuse and the course of control that you're experiencing at home.

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And everything that that personality type is learning in therapy, they are learning it, they are internalizing it, they're learning the verbiage, they go home, they weaponize it, and they use it against you.

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So when we're talking about these personality styles, there are some people who believe that there's some type of insanity involved in it.

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And then there's another line of thinking, like Peter Salerno, who I really admire, that they're saying they know exactly what they're doing, they're extraordinarily strategic about it.

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Nothing is happenstance, although we spend most of our times in those relationships thinking that they didn't mean what they did, or if they had only known how we felt about something, they wouldn't have taken that action or said those things.

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And that's inaccurate.

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It's absolutely inaccurate.

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They're very strategic.

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Everything they do has a purpose.

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So let's go back to the base, let's go back to domestic abuse, let's go back to a mindset because all of this revolves around a mindset.

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This entire world is steeped and embedded in patriarchy and misogyny.

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We just went through the Me Too movement.

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A lot of people will say we made a lot, we, we, we held a lot, we got a lot of ground in the Me Too movement, and I'm going to disagree because I'll tell you what, these years later, I don't see a lot of dis, I don't see a lot of difference in our justice system with the care or concern or understanding or the care to learn on the part of our justice system, our attorneys and our judges to actually understand what coercive control is so that they can actually implement justice and care for those they're meant to protect.

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So when we're talking about a mindset, when we talk about patriarchy and misogyny, we're talking about entitlement, right?

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Patriarchy and misogyny bears out a mindset of entitlement.

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And in that entitlement, there is there's a an innate sense of the right to exert control over those in your sphere of influence.

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Everything else is born out of that.

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So when we're talking about um uh a partner sexually acting out, having multiple affairs, having emotional affairs, when we're talking about uh uh the fact that you don't have a credit card in your name, that you don't have access to the bank accounts, when you're at home and you're told that because you're the wife, you need to submit and do things the way your partner wants them done.

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When you find that you're in a relationship where as long as we're all doing what your partner wants to do, it's all roses and butterflies.

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But the minute that you state that you don't want to go to a specific restaurant because it doesn't make your stomach feel well, and you end up going someplace else, there's that underlying verbiage the entire time of why we couldn't go to a certain restaurant because uh mommy, and it's mommy's fault that we couldn't go a specific place.

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And there's always a sense of punishment and retribution if you disagree, if you speak your voice, you'll find in these relationships that if you actually look back on them, even when you can think of the good memories and you can think of the wonderful things done for you, they were never just for you.

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It was always because it it benefited his needs or somebody else's needs that he wanted to impress or he wanted to align with them in those homes.

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Everybody learns their place, everybody figures out how they're gonna cope to get along.

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And it's very ironic that these men will walk around and say, Oh, well, you know, happy wife, happy life.

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And that's the farthest thing from the truth, right?

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We learn to adjust because we know there will be no happy wife, happy life, if what our what our goals and our needs don't align with theirs, right?

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So in those homes, as long as everybody's following what makes dad happy and nobody's pushing against him, life's pretty peaceful.

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Most of the time in those homes, you will not notice till your kids get to the age where they start utilizing their voice, and once they start utilizing their voice, your partner will attempt to make consequences more severe for them, because his job is to keep everybody inside his box.

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His job is that when you go out, everybody mirrors off the we he gets to mirror off of your entire family and how beautiful it is for the entire world to see what a beautiful man he is, because look at his beautiful family, right?

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When you start voicing your own opinion, that's not tolerated, and that's a wound.

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Whether you are an abuser, a narcissist, a psychopath, a sociopath, the minute you step outside the box, that's when the physical abuse starts.

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Most people don't realize that.

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They just think that's why I say abuse and not violence.

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Because most abusers Keep you under wraps, in their box, presenting to the world how they want to present by the use of coercive control.

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When we're talking about narcissistic personality traits, there is a spectrum, right?

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You people can have traits and then they can have the disorder.

00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:54.059
And yeah, I will say that, especially in this political climate, the word narcissist is being thrown around a lot.

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Right?

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When I'm working with my clients, though, and that's the thing, right?

00:20:58.619 --> 00:21:00.779
We it would be good to have a diagnosis.

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I'd really love to have a diagnosis.

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Well, 99% of the time you're not going to get a diagnosis because your man's not going to submit to that.

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He's not even going to go to therapy on his own.

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So what we do is, and I love how Dr.

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Romney put has um termed it in her new book, is antagonistic.

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They're antagonistic personality types.

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So if you're antagonistic, what do you do?

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What are your clusters of behaviors?

00:21:32.859 --> 00:21:41.339
You're just looking to really, it's like trying to poke the bear all the time with the people that are in your life, right?

00:21:41.500 --> 00:21:55.819
Antagonistic personality types are always trying to do something to make themselves look better, to be better, to make somebody feel less than, so that they can feel superior to.

00:21:56.220 --> 00:22:14.859
Because in the narcissistic spectrum, even though their persona or their mask is kind and loving and charismatic, and they are just the Boy Scout, the white knight, the one that's willing to go mow the neighbor's lawn, right?

00:22:15.019 --> 00:22:17.819
Or help the other neighbor move out of their home.

00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:22.619
Yet in their own homes, they're not doing any of those things.

00:22:22.859 --> 00:22:23.180
Right?

00:22:23.339 --> 00:22:26.619
They're going and visiting their friend in the hospital.

00:22:26.779 --> 00:22:29.420
They're helping to take them to physical therapy.

00:22:29.660 --> 00:22:47.500
Yet you have surgery and you're post-op, not two days, and they invite their friend over to have a big banquet with all of the food that all of your friends brought over so that your family would have meals during your recovery.

00:22:47.740 --> 00:23:00.539
And you're left sitting on the side of your bed in so much pain on a footstool because you can't get back into your bed and your partner has not come to even check on you to see how you're doing in three hours.

00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:02.859
And you're two days post-op.

00:23:03.339 --> 00:23:10.619
But to the world, wow, he's actually wow, he's actually taking his friend to PT.

00:23:11.660 --> 00:23:13.339
What a good guy.

00:23:14.059 --> 00:23:14.700
Wow.

00:23:15.019 --> 00:23:23.900
He's actually going over and spending four days with his with his mom because her her her health is failing.

00:23:25.579 --> 00:23:35.980
And we all know, well, yeah, his mom's health is failing, so he's there to figure out financially where do things stand because that's what he's concerned about.

00:23:36.539 --> 00:23:41.660
Because all the all the toys in the sandbox belong to him, right?

00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:56.539
So when we're looking at narcissistic personality disorder, what I try to help my my clients focus on is let's not get down in the weeds with it with the diagnoses.

00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:59.259
Let's look at the present behaviors.

00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:06.859
Because does it really matter whether they have a true personality disorder or not?

00:24:07.660 --> 00:24:30.619
If you're implementing protective boundaries and you're reclaiming your voice, and you've made an intentional ask of him to do the work that he needs to do to repair the relationship, all we need to do is actually sit back and let him be him.

00:24:31.900 --> 00:24:32.539
Right?

00:24:32.859 --> 00:24:44.940
The most loving thing that we can do in a relationship is to allow our partner to do exactly what we want.

00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:51.259
We want to live a life of freedom without fear that's uncontrollable.

00:24:52.619 --> 00:24:59.900
Us in those choices, we make those choices in fidelity to our relationships.

00:25:03.740 --> 00:25:10.059
Individuals that are entitled make choices that are good for them.

00:25:12.140 --> 00:25:44.859
So when we are able to lay out what our non-negotiables are, implement our protector boundaries to protect ourselves and have become grounded enough and be able to not sit in emotional reactivity and actually understand the arrows that are being shot at us that we don't react and sit back, all we need to do is watch the choices that our spouse makes to see if there's going to be change or not.

00:25:45.099 --> 00:25:46.940
Because that's what we're looking for.

00:25:47.180 --> 00:25:49.500
We're looking for change in behavior.

00:25:49.819 --> 00:26:06.140
And if there is no change in behavior, and the choices that are continuing to be made are not honoring to you, your children, your marriage, your personhood, you get to make a choice.

00:26:06.460 --> 00:26:11.980
And it is not my job nor my role to tell you whether you should stay or go.

00:26:12.700 --> 00:26:16.700
Every woman chooses to stay or go for their own reasons.

00:26:17.660 --> 00:26:27.420
And the only person that gets to make that choice is that woman or that partner, if we're talking about individuals in an LGGBQIA community.

00:26:27.579 --> 00:26:33.740
There are many reasons we stay, and there are many reasons we go, and all of those are to be honored.

00:26:35.500 --> 00:26:48.059
There's no shame and there's no guilt in any of those decisions that we make when we are looking at a place of survival and figuring out how to remain safe and keep our children safe.

00:26:48.220 --> 00:26:57.579
Now, when we're talking about psychopaths and sociopaths, I believe they are more common than we believe that they are.

00:26:58.779 --> 00:26:59.420
Right?

00:27:00.380 --> 00:27:08.460
All I'm and and the truth is, is that where where is that overly?

00:27:08.619 --> 00:27:16.059
Like most people would say, you know, not all abusers are narcissists, but all narcissists are abusers, right?

00:27:16.940 --> 00:27:24.619
When we're talking about sociopathy and psychopathy, we're just talking about things that are so far off the bell curve.

00:27:25.019 --> 00:27:42.059
And the difference is, is you know, sociopathy, there's a social component, there's the charisma, there's the ability and uh to feel empathy, but that felt empathy is meant to be used against you, right?

00:27:42.940 --> 00:27:48.460
Psychopathy is evil.

00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:53.259
Sociopathy is evil.

00:27:53.900 --> 00:28:07.579
For me, those are two very hard things to distinguish because you can have a psychopath show up that's charismatic, right?

00:28:08.779 --> 00:28:33.900
That will take all everything that you have and utilize it for their own good, and you will never know until somebody else exposes it to you what you're dealing with, and in all of those disorders, and coercive control, right?

00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:44.779
It's very easy to see when someone's an overt narcissist, it's very easy to see when someone is uses violence to keep you in under wraps and under control.

00:28:45.579 --> 00:28:58.299
But these, the coercive control, the covert, vulnerable narcissist, the sociopath, and the psychopath, do we really need to know the distinction?

00:28:58.539 --> 00:29:05.339
What we know in those disorders is they're insidious and they're strategic.

00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:10.140
And if less you know what you're looking at, you will never see it.

00:29:10.539 --> 00:29:13.819
But once you see them, you will never unsee them.

00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:14.700
Right.

00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:16.059
And I agree with you.

00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:28.940
I don't think that there's necessarily an importance of understanding if the your person that you've your partner is psychopath versus sociopath versus narcissist or a combination, maybe of a couple of those.

00:29:29.259 --> 00:29:45.900
And I feel maybe that the need for certain individuals to be able to put that on their abusers to display some shame that we all carry as a victim of, well, if I know that I was with a psychopath, then I understand it's all on him.

00:29:45.980 --> 00:29:49.980
It wasn't me or a sociopath or a narcissist, you know, any of those.

00:29:50.140 --> 00:29:54.059
But let's let's get into the coercive control more.

00:29:54.220 --> 00:30:05.420
I know you have talked a little bit about that, but definitely we need to understand what it is, how it, what it looks like, uh, you know, the importance of it.

00:30:05.579 --> 00:30:11.500
I think it should be included in the domestic abuse definitions for sure.

00:30:12.220 --> 00:30:25.500
And it's yes, and I think in those certain places in the different states and the different countries where it is, there is probably a burden of proof of how can you prove that you are a victim of coercive control.

00:30:25.579 --> 00:30:26.940
So let's let's get into that.

00:30:27.019 --> 00:30:28.299
There's so much to talk about.

00:30:28.779 --> 00:30:37.740
You know, and and kudos to the UK, New Zealand, Queensland, like Queensland just criminalized coercive control.

00:30:39.019 --> 00:30:42.779
Past, present and future.

00:30:43.339 --> 00:30:45.180
Like that's amazing.

00:30:45.579 --> 00:30:49.980
There's not there's not a state in the United States that's done that.

00:30:50.539 --> 00:30:51.019
Right?

00:30:51.180 --> 00:31:18.700
There's a handful of states that have nestled it underneath family law, under the domestic violence statutes, so that it can become we it can we can become more aware and that it increases the scope of what we are able to uh um file a report on and have active upon acted upon criminally.

00:31:19.259 --> 00:31:43.180
Yet, quite frankly, Ingrid, in order for that to happen, our police forces, our social workers, our CPS, our attorneys, our judges, our guardian medlitums, they all need to be willing to submit to the training.

00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:50.140
Because having words on paper doesn't help us at all when nobody has eyes to see.

00:31:51.099 --> 00:31:52.700
And that's what I say.

00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:55.660
The eye sees what the mind knows.

00:31:56.619 --> 00:31:58.859
It doesn't matter if it's on our books.

00:31:59.660 --> 00:32:15.259
The horrible and terrible thing is that we can't get those people in the justice system whose job is to implement justice and protect us and protect the vulnerable, are not willing to even take a course.

00:32:15.579 --> 00:32:23.019
Do you know that when you go to law school, you have 10 hours, 10 hours on domestic violence?

00:32:23.180 --> 00:32:24.140
That's it.

00:32:24.460 --> 00:32:27.180
And coercive control is never discussed.

00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:29.740
So let's talk about coercive control.

00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:36.220
Duluth created the power and control wheel.

00:32:37.339 --> 00:32:49.259
We have taken that from an abuse standpoint, power and control, and then from that, it spans out to at least 12 areas of where abuse can occur.

00:32:50.859 --> 00:32:53.579
Coercive control looks like.

00:32:53.740 --> 00:32:55.420
Let me take you through a story.

00:32:55.579 --> 00:33:00.220
I'm just gonna take because it's easier to take you through a story to show you what it looks like.

00:33:01.259 --> 00:33:06.779
Um, in the beginning stages, you start dating someone, and they are wonderful.

00:33:06.940 --> 00:33:13.420
Like they have shown up, and they are the person you have been looking for all of your life.

00:33:14.299 --> 00:33:30.140
All of the deepest hurts that you've had, they have been open to listen to them and empathize with them and care for you well, to give you a hug, to stand with you, to just listen to you as you cry.

00:33:30.859 --> 00:33:37.660
They understand your hopes and dreams, and they tell you that wow, I am right behind you.

00:33:37.819 --> 00:33:41.579
I will support you 100% in what you want to do.

00:33:42.460 --> 00:33:53.980
They are the ones that are sending you flowers at work once a week while you're dating, and everybody in the office is going, oh my gosh, how did you find him?

00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:55.819
You are so lucky.

00:33:56.059 --> 00:34:01.579
They're the ones that are flying you up the coast just for lunch, right?

00:34:01.900 --> 00:34:07.740
They're the ones that are doing the big gestures, big trips, right?

00:34:07.980 --> 00:34:09.180
Big dreams.

00:34:09.739 --> 00:34:11.819
What are we gonna do when we get married?

00:34:11.980 --> 00:34:13.980
What is our life gonna look like?

00:34:14.220 --> 00:34:21.019
And they're caught, they're making promises and they're telling you everything that you want to hear.

00:34:23.659 --> 00:34:41.739
What we don't realize is that beginning part of our relationship where we think they're so in tune, that they have such a great empathy and care and love, and they understand our past wounds and where we're healing from.

00:34:44.300 --> 00:34:53.820
And they're telling us what our future is gonna look like and what that's gonna be like, and everything that we envision that we want a marriage and family to be like.

00:34:54.539 --> 00:35:05.980
They're data mining, they're love bombing, and they're future faking.

00:35:09.820 --> 00:35:15.019
Those are three forms of coercive control that also fall under gaslighting.

00:35:15.659 --> 00:35:21.659
Gaslighting is a form of coercive control and involves all of those things.

00:35:22.219 --> 00:35:54.219
What you'll also notice during that dating and courting period is that every once in a while they'll say or do something that makes you feel less than, that makes you feel that you need to be better more, that somehow you are really lucky to have them.

00:35:54.860 --> 00:35:55.260
Right?

00:35:55.340 --> 00:36:17.019
And it's in little things, it can be they want to go grow, they want to go clothes shopping with you, and they're putting clothes over the door that you would never wear, that aren't your style, that are made for a completely different body type.

00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:22.699
What does that do to you?

00:36:24.940 --> 00:36:25.420
Wow.

00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:31.340
Um I guess I need to lose a little weight.

00:36:32.139 --> 00:36:41.500
Maybe I need to get some work done someplace because if he's handing me those type of clothes, he doesn't even like the colors I wear.

00:36:42.860 --> 00:36:43.260
Right?

00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:50.780
So you go from wearing your beautiful pinks and salmons and lavenders to earth tone.

00:36:52.219 --> 00:37:06.300
What we don't realize is that it's not because earth tones are what he loves, it's because earth tones make you less noticeable.

00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:13.420
Earth tones blend you in to your surrounding area, right?

00:37:14.300 --> 00:37:28.300
Because even though they chose you for your beauty and your compassion and your vivaciousness, they want all of that, but it can't be more than who they are, right?

00:37:28.619 --> 00:37:30.940
You have to be one step less.

00:37:34.619 --> 00:37:38.219
And you're the one to that's supposed to help them shine.

00:37:39.019 --> 00:37:49.500
What I will hear from 99.9% of my clients is everything changed on the honeymoon.

00:37:50.059 --> 00:38:21.340
Right from the honeymoon, whether it comes to sexual intimacy and lack thereof, or sexual intimacy and asking for things that weren't part of the dating and courting period, or it comes to uh being disregarded, or there is a silent treatment, there's a noticeable change from the honeymoon on.

00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:33.179
And that's why when a lot of people don't know coercive control, and you get so many years down the marriage, and you will have people say, You knew who you married.

00:38:33.659 --> 00:38:35.099
No, actually, we didn't.

00:38:35.260 --> 00:38:37.739
You didn't know who you married, right?

00:38:37.980 --> 00:38:39.739
You didn't know who you married.

00:38:40.059 --> 00:38:43.659
And then when you get married, you just notice little things.

00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:49.579
Like it comes down to, you know, wow, I can't believe your mom said that about you.

00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:51.980
Wow, did you notice?

00:38:52.219 --> 00:38:58.860
Did you notice how your mom always like somehow she makes things go her way?

00:38:59.900 --> 00:39:03.659
That wasn't really a really nice thing that your brother said to you.

00:39:03.820 --> 00:39:05.340
Wow, I can't believe.

00:39:05.659 --> 00:39:07.820
And your friend said, What?

00:39:08.539 --> 00:39:15.659
You know, I just think when you go out with your friends, they're just a little crazy, and I think they're gonna get you in trouble.

00:39:16.699 --> 00:39:19.179
I don't know if that's really good for you.

00:39:20.219 --> 00:39:24.380
And then the minute you have a problem with one of those people, who are you gonna go to?

00:39:24.539 --> 00:39:25.659
Who do you turn to?

00:39:25.900 --> 00:39:40.699
You turn to them, and they're all in your boat, and then your world becomes smaller and smaller and smaller, and their big thing is you and I are married now.

00:39:41.820 --> 00:39:48.619
We are each other's person, it's us against the world, nobody else understands us.

00:39:51.260 --> 00:39:56.539
It's isolation that's coercive control, and it sounds romantic, right?

00:39:56.780 --> 00:40:00.219
And it sounds romantic, right?

00:40:00.380 --> 00:40:02.059
It sounds romantic.

00:40:02.300 --> 00:40:04.780
You know, we should we don't, you know what?

00:40:04.940 --> 00:40:07.980
We shouldn't talk to anybody else about our problems.

00:40:08.380 --> 00:40:12.139
The only people we should talk to about our problems is us, right?

00:40:12.219 --> 00:40:17.659
And those things we should not be talking about them out and open, they should only be behind closed doors.

00:40:18.860 --> 00:40:22.860
Isolation, alienation.

00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:24.860
Right?

00:40:25.099 --> 00:40:26.619
They alienate you.

00:40:26.860 --> 00:40:43.019
And they alienate you in a way that when they're when you're with your friends, with when you're with your family, what we don't realize till years later is we get up and walk away from the table, and there's a comment thrown out.

00:40:43.179 --> 00:40:44.139
You know what?

00:40:44.539 --> 00:40:45.340
I don't know.

00:40:45.500 --> 00:40:46.300
I don't know.

00:40:46.380 --> 00:40:47.500
Look how brilliant she is.

00:40:47.579 --> 00:40:49.579
I don't know why she won't go back to work.

00:40:51.019 --> 00:40:54.300
I've been trying to get her to go back to work, and she will not go back to work.

00:40:54.380 --> 00:40:56.300
And we really need the money.

00:40:58.219 --> 00:41:01.260
Yet between the two of you, you have an agreement.

00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:06.059
Because you can't go out and earn more money than him.

00:41:06.699 --> 00:41:08.619
Because that's a wound, right?

00:41:09.820 --> 00:41:14.460
As you get along in the marriage, it's little by little by little.

00:41:14.619 --> 00:41:15.820
Do you want to go out to dinner?

00:41:15.980 --> 00:41:17.019
I'd love to go out to dinner.

00:41:17.099 --> 00:41:18.539
Where would you like to go?

00:41:18.940 --> 00:41:21.500
Oh, I'd like to go to I'd like to go to Italian.

00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:23.659
Oh, well, I really want Mexican.

00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:26.300
Well, I really don't want Mexican.

00:41:26.380 --> 00:41:28.619
Yeah, but I've been really craving Mexican.

00:41:28.780 --> 00:41:33.019
Like, let's go to Mexican tonight and then we can go to Italian on another night.

00:41:33.340 --> 00:41:33.659
Okay.

00:41:35.260 --> 00:41:35.900
Right?

00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:43.340
You'll find that whenever you say one thing or want one thing, they want the exact opposite.

00:41:43.579 --> 00:41:45.579
And it's not that they even want it.

00:41:46.380 --> 00:41:48.539
They just want you to agree with them.

00:41:48.860 --> 00:41:51.019
They just want you to do it their way.

00:41:52.219 --> 00:42:13.659
And as the relationship goes on, all of a sudden, because part of your agreement was you were going to give up your career and you were going to raise the children, and you were going to do everything that you could to manage every other aspect of your lives so that they could climb the ladder.

00:42:15.579 --> 00:42:20.940
And then all of a sudden, you don't have a credit card in your name.

00:42:22.460 --> 00:42:26.380
You have a credit card, but you're an authorized user.

00:42:28.219 --> 00:42:36.699
And whether what he's doing or not with his credit and paying it off, even though it's not your credit card, it's still getting put on your credit report.

00:42:38.300 --> 00:42:40.460
You don't have a bank account in your name.

00:42:40.619 --> 00:42:42.619
You may have a joint account.

00:42:43.179 --> 00:42:45.739
A check may be deposited to it.

00:42:46.380 --> 00:42:49.260
He may tell everybody that you manage the finances.

00:42:49.820 --> 00:42:51.739
But what you do is you pay the bills.

00:42:51.980 --> 00:42:53.820
But you don't know what investments you have.

00:42:53.980 --> 00:42:55.579
You really don't know what debt you have.

00:42:55.659 --> 00:42:57.579
You don't know what assets you have.

00:42:57.820 --> 00:43:00.780
And you're not allowed access to the bank account.

00:43:01.659 --> 00:43:03.340
Because we don't need to know that.

00:43:03.579 --> 00:43:05.420
They're taking care of us.

00:43:07.099 --> 00:43:28.619
So then we have no financial resources or access to financial resources, which is the biggest thing besides the brainwashing and psychological damage that has been done to us by the time we figure out what's happened to us that keeps us there.

00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:29.980
Right.

00:43:33.579 --> 00:43:44.860
When you do wake up, it is a very terrifying place to be.

00:44:16.219 --> 00:44:32.860
Not really involved in the church, doesn't really know scripture, doesn't really even know what it looks like within their faith to be the spiritual leader, by virtue of the fact that they are the man, they are the spiritual leader.

00:44:33.099 --> 00:44:36.860
And it's God, him, you, and the kids.

00:44:37.420 --> 00:44:41.260
So in the spiritual world, you are allowed to make a plea.

00:44:41.420 --> 00:44:47.739
You can make a plea to your husband if you don't agree with what they're doing, and they're doing something that's really going to harm your family.

00:44:48.059 --> 00:44:53.179
And if they don't agree with you, you have to accept that and submit.

00:44:54.460 --> 00:45:04.460
And they can be making a really bad decision for the family, which most of the times they are, because it's a very selfish decision that serves their purpose.

00:45:06.139 --> 00:45:11.579
And in that, we then go to the pastor.

00:45:12.219 --> 00:45:14.380
We go to marriage counseling.

00:45:14.780 --> 00:45:18.539
And when we sit in there, we are very confused.

00:45:19.739 --> 00:45:32.059
We're being told that we're being avoidant and they're and they're being pleasers when in fact the truth is that they're just liars.

00:45:33.260 --> 00:45:33.579
Right?

00:45:33.820 --> 00:45:45.820
And they've been lying and deceiving and manipulating things so that they get to do what they want to do when they want to do it, because they don't think that they have any reason to explain anything to us.

00:45:45.980 --> 00:45:47.820
It's none of our business.

00:45:48.139 --> 00:45:48.780
Right?

00:45:49.019 --> 00:45:55.179
And then we're we're being made as being avoidant push-pullers, right?

00:45:55.739 --> 00:46:13.980
When actuality, because we're in this vortex of let me do some big beautiful gesture and apologize to you for all my bad behavior, and I'm gonna change and I'm gonna do these things, and I'm gonna lean in, and then we want to lean in because we love them.

00:46:15.420 --> 00:46:25.659
And then out of nowhere, they do something so harmful and hurtful and damaging to us psychologically that we pull away.

00:46:25.900 --> 00:46:28.300
That is a healthy response.

00:46:29.980 --> 00:46:30.619
All right.

00:46:31.260 --> 00:46:41.980
And then in the church, what ends up happening is they go, well, you know, he just, if you just loved him more, if you just had more sex with him, then things would be better.

00:46:42.300 --> 00:46:53.340
If you just took the high road and you just were, if you just, you know, were Christ to him in the marriage, then things would get better.

00:46:53.900 --> 00:46:58.940
Well, wow, how messed up is that in our communities?

00:46:59.099 --> 00:47:07.900
Because here we as women, if you're if you're a faith-based, Christ-centered individual, the women are called to be the church in your marriage.

00:47:08.219 --> 00:47:10.699
The husband is called to be Christ.

00:47:11.739 --> 00:47:18.940
So now, not only are you asking us to submit to spiritual leadership that doesn't exist.

00:47:20.539 --> 00:47:23.179
Now you're also asking us to be Christ.

00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:27.340
So now you're asking us to take on both roles.

00:47:27.579 --> 00:47:37.900
We're supposed to submit, we're supposed to love more, we're supposed to be the ones first through the door, first to bend the knee, first to acquiesce.

00:47:39.019 --> 00:47:40.619
That's not sound.

00:47:41.260 --> 00:48:06.539

101-Coercive Control, The Invisible Abuse with Dr. Lisa

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