WEBVTT
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Hi Warriors, welcome to One in Three.
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I'm your host, Ingrid.
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I have learned so much over the last few years from experts and survivors alike on the multiple forms that domestic abuse can take.
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My guest today, Lynn, shares her story, which includes financial, legal, physical, and post-separation abuse.
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She also brings forward a topic that not many people have heard of: reproductive coercion.
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If you're like me and unfamiliar with this topic, you're going to want to lean in.
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Here's Lynn.
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Hi, Lynn.
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Welcome to One and Three, and thank you so much for joining me today.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Well, before we get into our discussion, could you give some of a background just so everybody gets to know you a little bit?
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Sure.
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So uh my name is Lynn Stroud.
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I am a uh survivor of multiple types of abuse, including sexual assault, reproductive coercion, domestic violence, um, and also post-separation abuse, and uh I would say systemic abuse by the family court.
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That's a big one.
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And I think a lot of listeners are familiar with domestic violence and sexual assault.
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The reproductive coercion, I think maybe a term that individuals are unfamiliar with.
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And post-separation abuse, I think probably a lot of people are familiar with it, but don't necessarily know that's what it's called.
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But before we get into all of that, do you want to just share with us a little bit of your personal story?
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Sure, sure.
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So regarding the reproductive coercion, you know, in a sense, reproductive coercion is any sexual act in which you are inhibiting another party's autonomy and reproductive choices.
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And that can really include so much.
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Um, for instance, what happened to me was I was 20 years old.
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I was dating a man who was older than I was, and um we had been dating for several months, and all that time I was actually on birth control.
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I was on the pill.
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And I thought that was a pretty trusted, you know, form.
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I was okay with it.
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But I went to uh go see my gynecologist for an annual exam.
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And she said, you know, you're a young woman on the go.
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Maybe you'd like to try out this new thing so you don't have to remember to take the pill every day.
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Uh, it's a patch that you stick on.
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Uh, and you know, it's pretty new on the market.
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And I thought, okay, this sounds great.
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I mean, you just put on a patch for the week and then you don't have to think about it.
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Uh and I said, You don't have to worry about anything.
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She said, No, it'll stay on in the shower.
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I said, Great, and marched on out of there.
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Um, I went on vacation to an island, and the minute I set foot in the water, the patch came off.
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So apparently it had been tested on shower water, but like hadn't been tested in salt water, I guess was it, but it either way, it it came off.
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So I come back after vacation, and um, you know, my boyfriend at the time and I we had already had sex.
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It wasn't anything new to us, but I sat down and said, Look, we have to be incredibly careful right now because the patch came off.
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I haven't been taking the pill, obviously.
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So we need to figure out something.
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And, you know, he was always the type of guy who would say, I don't want to use condoms.
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I don't like them.
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They take away the feeling.
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It's excuses that so many men will use so that they can get out of using one.
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Um, and so we decided that we were gonna use the pull-out method, and we agreed on it beforehand.
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It wasn't, I think, the best idea that we've ever had, but it was consensual and it was agreed upon.
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And so we started having sex, and I'm reminding him the entire way through, don't forget, you said you were gonna pull out, don't forget, don't forget.
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And he's getting irritated with me, and he's saying, I won't, I won't forget, I won't forget.
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Well, the end of the sex came, and he did not pull out, and he completely went back on his word.
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And all I could think to say was, What the hell did you just do?
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I mean, I was in complete shock, uh, and I felt really betrayed initially.
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And the way he all he could really say, and it was very flippant and with zero emotion, was sorry, I forgot.
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So, of course, we had argued about it after that.
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Um, and that sex had actually uh eventually gotten me pregnant.
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So, you know, um I had um I had gone about two weeks and uh ended up my period was late, and um, I took a test, and um, and I remember just being so angry with him and so upset and confused.
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And I was in the middle of college, I was still living with my parents, I was in no way, in no way ready to become a mother.
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Um, and when I called him and told him I was pregnant, he said again with zero feeling, okay, well, let's just get married.
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No.
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And so we went back and forth and we argued about it.
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But every time I would say to him, Why did you do this after we agreed?
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He would just say, Well, I was drunk and I forgot.
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But as the relationship went on, I started to realize that as he was putting more and more pressure on me to go forward with the pregnancy when I wasn't ready to, and trying to trap me into a relationship with him that I didn't know if I wanted or not.
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He, I believe 100% that he intended to do what he did and that he wanted to get me pregnant to trap him, to trap me into a relationship with him.
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You know, that's something that I guess throughout the years you always hear of women trying to entrap men by getting pregnant.
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So this is this is, I think, a concept that not very many people are familiar with.
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Absolutely.
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I think, and it can absolutely happen woman to man.
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It's definitely not specifically a gender-based crime, but I think um generally I feel like there is an overall gender bias to the crime because if you're in a relationship and at that point I didn't know enough, I was too young to really have a good handle on it, and it was too early in the relationship for me to know.
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But this was an abusive relationship.
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After I terminated the pregnancy, he went from maybe the first few months being controlling and jealous and kind of cold to being blatantly abusive because he blamed me for not wanting to go through with the pregnancy.
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So then he started to become, you know, verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, extremely manipulative.
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And so I think when you have a relationship like that, where there is one partner who is looking to entrap the other one and inflict this kind of this kind of control, I feel like women can so easily be taken advantage of.
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And, you know, there are other ways that it can happen.
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You know, it's not just the actual, you know, a sexual act.
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It's, you know, like what he tried to do with me, trying to influence my reproductive choices to go one way or the other.
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It could be that there's a woman that wants to keep the child and the man doesn't want her to.
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And so he might try to pressure her into uh terminating the pregnancy.
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And uh he, if he if it's a relationship where, you know, let's say the man in the relationship makes more money than the woman and there's financial abuse going on, if you refuse to provide your partner with reasonable finances to, you know, either support the pregnancy and get some um reproductive treatment, or if she doesn't want to go through the pregnancy and you intentionally withhold funds um for her to get an abortion, that's also reproductive coercion.
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Um, and there's so many ways it can happen.
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Yeah.
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Um, and I want to get back to your story a little bit, but let's go, let's talk a little bit more about reproductive coercion since you started describing some.
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Are there more examples of what it can look like?
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Okay.
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So this would be kind of an overall list of ways that reproductive coercion can happen.
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Hiding or destroying contraceptives, tampering with condoms, um, and some of the information that I might want to talk about today would be stealthing.
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That is the what stealthing is is tampering or removing a condom without the other party's notice.
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Um, refusing to use contraception, withholding financial access, lying about fertility or contraceptive use, guilt and manipulation, forced unprotected sex, physical violence, forcing someone to have an abortion, preventing someone from having an abortion, intentionally causing them to have a miscarriage, or pressuring them to continue with a pregnancy that they don't want to continue with.
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And this can happen regardless of what kind of relationship you have.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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So I think there's a lot of misconception of what can happen when you're married and there are obligations as a spouse that these some of those items don't apply because you're married.
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Right.
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Right.
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And I feel like there are, you know, I'm sure that this happens a whole I think many women have heard my story and have kind of had an aha moment and have realized, wow, I I may have been really close to that, or that did actually happen to me.
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But um where it was more of like a dating circumstance, or, you know, maybe it was a one night stand that turned into something else.
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But I think that if we were to take an accurate depiction, and I mean worldwide, I think um I think this is probably something that affects so many married couples, especially in a society where there's patriarchal aspects.
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Yeah.
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And then you don't even necessarily know it's happening or it has happened until all of a sudden you're pregnant.
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Or if it's the other way around, the woman telling the man I'm pregnant.
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Right.
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Right.
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Okay.
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Why do you why is it important to understand what reproductive coercion is?
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So I think it's so important for everyone to recognize these signs, not just women.
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Because when it happened to me, like I said, this was over 20 years ago, and I lived in a state at the time where I did have access to terminate my pregnancy.
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Unfortunately, in the last few years with the reversal of Roe v.
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Wade, we have so many couples and so many individuals residing in states where they can no longer get reproductive access to certain things.
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Um, and that not only puts their health at risk, but it really is something that can change the entire trajectory of your life.
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Yeah, it can.
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And I think that it goes beyond just I want to have a kid.
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I think in probably most of these cases, there is some control aspect, which is when there's a power imbalance or somebody is trying to wield control, then that's an abusive situation.
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And it's it's really just kind of one of the warning signs, if for me at least, you know, because this was fairly early in the relationship.
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I want to say I was maybe with dating the guy for four or five months.
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And so there were other signs, like I mentioned, you know, the possessiveness and the, you know, the jealousness, the controlling behavior.
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Um, I think at that time, I don't even know if the phrase or the term coercive control existed.
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And now I think we're seeing it everywhere, but it was absolutely a red flag.
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And so I think it's really important for people in relationships to recognize that there are very specific warning signs, um, and even maybe some that are a little bit more nuanced.
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And it could be someone pretending to want to share a life with you, um, you know, which is originally the way that I took his intention.
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I I took it that, you know, well, the second I found out he was pregnant, so he's doing the honorable thing.
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But later on in the relationship, I realized that, you know, it was it his intention for doing so was completely insidious, and that what he essentially wanted was control.
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Yeah, it is, I imagine, a situation where it'd be very easy to mistake it as a romantic gesture.
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Um, I wanted to just comment quick that a lot of times in abusive situations, when the abuser starts to realize their loss of control, that's when they step up the abuse.
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So by you taking control over your body in your pregnancy, you took his control or his perceived control that he had over you away and and then escalated the abuse.
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Absolutely.
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Right.
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And I think that because there was already a power imbalance there, I think because he was older than me, because I was still in college and still, you know, mostly dependent on my parents, he was, he had already already had begun his career, he had his own money, he was a little bit more established than I was.
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And I think he he recognized that imbalance, uh, and he recognized that there was like a different amount of power in the relationship.
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And um I think when he couldn't get it that way, uh, you're absolutely right.
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He um he, you know, it definitely stepped up a notch and became much more dangerous.
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So you mentioned other forms of abuse.
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Was it all from the same, this same man?
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So I spent years, I think, going from one relationship to another where there was some form of abuse.
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In that relationship, it was mostly verbal and um emotional, and and then there was the reproductive coercion.
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I was in a relationship before that when I was about 18 years old.
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And I always thought, like, if if you had asked me years ago to describe that relationship, I would have probably described it as tumultuous, you know, which is it, I would have never in a million years said it was abusive.
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But thinking back, there was um a time where he was absolutely physically abusive and strangled me.
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And I actually was so shocked at the moment that it happened that instead of confronting him about it, I buried it.
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I buried it in the back of my brain, and it was almost like a space, like it never happened.
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I was in another relationship when I was in my late 20s, where um I was dating the man for oh, a while, probably several months.
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Um, and I was at the point where I felt like I trusted him, and he became violent one day when we were alone and sexually assaulted me.
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And then several years later, I ended up meeting my first husband.
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And in the beginning, um, I thought, you know, I had won the lottery.
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I thought, wow, this is my person.
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He seems to kind of mirror me in every way.
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He seems to understand.
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Little did I know that was the beginning of narcissistic abuse and financial abuse because he kept telling me after we got married, I really want you to quit your job.
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You don't need to work anymore.
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And then once I did quit my job, the narrative completely changed.
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And it went from we're a team, we're in this together, to he would say things like, I made this money.
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You're not working.
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This, you don't have access to any money.
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This is my money.
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You don't have a right to it.
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So it became that.
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And there was so much more going on.
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I mean, uh, my first husband gambled, he abused his pain medication.
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And after our daughter was born, um, he seemed to become jealous of the bond that I had with her.
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And it took so much for me to have her.
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I mean, I, you know, went through a couple years of fertility issues where I couldn't get pregnant.
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Then once I started getting pregnant, I just kept having recurrent miscarriage miscarriages, and that happened for several years.
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And then I finally give birth to this beautiful, perfect little girl, and he turns, you know, completely evil on me.
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And and not only that, but doesn't want anything to do with either of us.
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You know, he starts going to work and doesn't want to come home at night.
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Um, he's uh hiding money from me and withholding information, and and I have no idea what's going on with him.
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Not only that, he doesn't want to help with the baby.
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You know, even when he does come home from work, which is rare, he doesn't want to do anything with her.
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He doesn't want to bathe her, he doesn't want to hold her.
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He just seems like he's not interested.
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And so we ended up splitting up when my daughter was about 11 months old.
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And the post-separation abuse that I experienced by him was probably some of the most damaging.
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And that's odd to say for someone who has been physically sexually assaulted.
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But I think the post-separation abuse was almost worse in a way because I kept, I feel like I was kind of screaming into the void.
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Like I would, I would get on the phone every day and I was talking to my lawyer saying, I don't feel safe and um I'm the one who's taking care of this baby.
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You know, I have to go, I have to figure out how to pay the bills on this house.
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I have to breastfeed her.
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I have to make sure that she's cared for.
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And now I have to figure out how to go back to work again because my soon-to-be ex-husband told me to stop working, and now I don't have any of my own money.
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He was withholding child support, all of the things, all of the terrible things that you could do to the mother of your child, that is what was happening.
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Yeah, and that's, I think, what a lot of people don't understand is that post-separation abuse.
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It can look like not paying child support, using the legal system to drain your finances, drain your sanity, more or less.
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And if there are no children involved, post-separation abuse can be stalking, harassment, ongoing, like if there's any financial ties, again, using the legal system and financial abuse to just continue exerting control or attempt their attempt to control you.
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And a lot of times I've heard a lot of stories where the children are used as pawns, like for what you said, he did not spend any time with your daughter.
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Well, I've heard stories where the father's not spent time with their children or very minimal amount of time, and then all of a sudden is very insistent on having equal custody.
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And even when they have equal custody, they're sending the kids off to somebody else's house to spend the night and whatever.
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So, yeah, post-separation abuse is, I believe itself, very traumatic.
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It definitely is.
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Yeah, I noticed with it my own ex-husband that he, you know, got a certain amount of visitation when we initially settled the divorce, which was probably when my daughter was about two.
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And he wasn't taking that visitation.
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But every time he would get a new girlfriend, then all of a sudden he would want to visit my daughter.
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And he would want my daughter to meet whoever this new supply was.
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So then he wanted to create this facade that he was this active father and this loving, you know, doting man.
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And they the other women had absolutely no idea what was going on.
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The only thing they were hearing was how awful of a person I was from his perspective.
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Um, so there's all this triangulation going on as well.
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Yes.
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And it's all being pitted against me.
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Yes.
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And triangular triangulation is an it's an important concept because to understand, because it is pitting two people who may not even ever communicate with each other against.
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Each other.
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But then what can happen is they can twist the narrative.
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So right now, you're the bad mom, and this new girlfriend is this great, wonderful person.
00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:38.140
And I need you to step in and be the kind of mom that my ex can't be.
00:22:38.380 --> 00:22:46.779
And if she becomes more of a permanent fixture and a more of a prominent uh position in your child's life, then all of a sudden things will twist.
00:22:46.859 --> 00:22:51.339
And it's, oh, my ex-wife never did something like that before.
00:22:51.579 --> 00:22:53.819
You need to, you have no idea how to be a mom.
00:22:53.980 --> 00:22:59.660
So it's very twisty, turny, confusing, and just gross.
00:22:59.819 --> 00:23:00.059
Yeah.
00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:00.859
Honestly.
00:23:01.099 --> 00:23:01.420
Yeah.
00:23:01.579 --> 00:23:09.900
My ex-husband actually um got another woman pregnant while we were still legally married.
00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:14.779
So, like right before the divorce was final, he got someone else pregnant.
00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:18.539
And we had just signed the divorce decree.
00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:25.339
And I want to say a few days later, I had this conversation with his girlfriend at the time.
00:23:25.660 --> 00:23:30.700
And when I first met her a few months before that, I just got a really bad feeling about her.
00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:32.700
There was just something about the way that she was acting.
00:23:32.859 --> 00:23:43.099
She was trying to sort of like hide herself and put her hood over her face as if she didn't really want me to see who she was, and she didn't really come out and introduce herself.
00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:47.339
Um, so just something really set, kind of just told me that there was something off.
00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:57.660
And I had, I've been a paralegal now for over 20 years, and I think just, you know, kind of bells went off in my head that was like, you need you need to look into this person.
00:23:57.819 --> 00:23:59.259
And I had a legal right to.
00:23:59.420 --> 00:24:03.579
At that time in our in our decree, we had information in there.
00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:15.900
It was specifically stated that if one person was starting to live with, you know, someone else, that the other party, that they should supply their information to the other party so they could do a background check on them.
00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:24.460
So I kept begging for her information and he kept refusing to give it to me, even though the order said he had to.
00:24:24.619 --> 00:24:33.579
So eventually I dug around a little bit and I found her name and her date of birth because uh she had it posted publicly on her Facebook page.
00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:35.579
So I guess that's a warning to anyone out there.
00:24:35.740 --> 00:24:40.220
If you don't want people to find out stuff about you, keep your birthday off Facebook.
00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:41.900
Goodness.
00:24:42.220 --> 00:24:42.619
Yeah.
00:24:42.859 --> 00:24:49.819
And so I did a little background check and found out that she had a pretty extensive criminal record.
00:24:50.140 --> 00:24:51.980
And we're not just talking misdemeanors.
00:24:52.059 --> 00:24:58.859
There were a few minor things on there like public intoxication and driving under the influence and theft.
00:24:59.259 --> 00:25:02.619
But I just kept thinking, I feel like there's something here that I'm missing.
00:25:02.779 --> 00:25:13.019
And it turns out I looked into a different county and she had a felony on her record for possession of methamphetamine.
00:25:13.579 --> 00:25:14.859
Oh my God.
00:25:16.299 --> 00:25:20.700
And when I told him about this, he called me a liar.
00:25:20.859 --> 00:25:22.299
And he said, I don't believe you.
00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:25.019
And I was like, I'll send you the paper right now.
00:25:25.180 --> 00:25:27.660
I will take a screenshot of it with my phone.
00:25:27.819 --> 00:25:29.900
I have absolutely no reason to lie to you.
00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:32.619
And so I've just I dug up all this information.
00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:36.859
Um, so I had a phone conversation with her at some point.
00:25:37.019 --> 00:25:46.380
And in that phone conversation, I said to her, Look, I've I've pulled up your records, and you know, I don't certainly want to judge you for your past, but it's looking a little concerning.
00:25:46.460 --> 00:25:49.660
I mean, I have a two-year-old daughter and you're spending time with her.
00:25:49.900 --> 00:25:52.539
And that was when I found out that she was pregnant.
00:25:52.700 --> 00:25:55.740
And that was maybe a few days after we had signed the divorce decree.
00:25:56.059 --> 00:25:57.339
She said, Oh, I'm clean.
00:25:57.420 --> 00:25:59.900
I I wouldn't be using I'm I'm expecting.
00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:04.539
And I thought, wow, what a pair, these two.
00:26:04.700 --> 00:26:07.420
Like, just they are truly made for each other.
00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:15.339
So, and then just a little side note, cut to months later when the baby was born, the baby was born addicted to meth.
00:26:15.900 --> 00:26:19.019
And CPS took the baby away from both of them.
00:26:19.339 --> 00:26:20.299
Holy cow.
00:26:20.539 --> 00:26:21.180
Yeah.
00:26:21.579 --> 00:26:35.019
And yet, still, if you, you know, were to look at my situation on the whole, I would be, I would be labeled probably by exterior parties as the problem.
00:26:35.740 --> 00:26:37.420
I was just about to say that.
00:26:37.579 --> 00:26:43.180
I'm sure you were considered the controlling parent, alienating your daughter from her father.
00:26:43.420 --> 00:26:48.779
But if you hadn't done all of this, your daughter would have been exposed to meth.
00:26:49.259 --> 00:26:49.579
Right.
00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:50.059
Right.
00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:55.259
God knows what was in that apartment that they were living in, what was what they were doing together.
00:26:55.579 --> 00:27:01.500
Um luckily they are no longer together, but they still share a child.
00:27:02.299 --> 00:27:03.819
Oh, that is so terrible.
00:27:03.980 --> 00:27:17.180
And it's not even like I didn't want to imply that they would have been giving your daughter meth, but I mean, if it's laying around the house, she picks it up, she's I mean, they're there, but like while she's in their care.
00:27:17.579 --> 00:27:17.900
Yeah.
00:27:18.140 --> 00:27:21.660
And what kind of care can you provide to a child while you're that high?
00:27:21.819 --> 00:27:22.059
Right.
00:27:22.220 --> 00:27:26.779
I mean, like, we're talking about a toddler, you know, like he started dating her before my child was even two.
00:27:27.019 --> 00:27:41.819
So we're talking about like a toddler walking around that's completely dependent on you for food, for changing her diaper, for keeping her clean, for playing with her, for keeping her safe, and you're using meth and who knows what else.
00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:48.299
And it was so disturbing because I I can't tell you how many lawyers I reached out to.
00:27:48.460 --> 00:27:57.740
Um, and I live in Central Texas, and so many of them told me, you should just keep your mouth shut.
00:27:58.940 --> 00:28:02.059
So many of them said, no one will care.
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:06.299
Unless one of them tests positive for drugs, no one will care.
00:28:06.380 --> 00:28:16.779
And so at the time the baby was born, you know, and the baby was addicted to meth, and I was like, well, okay, this is a clue, folks, because the the newborn baby did not go grab the meth itself.
00:28:16.940 --> 00:28:24.059
So clearly she was using while she was pregnant, but by that time she and my ex had ended their relationship.
00:28:24.220 --> 00:28:37.420
So basically what I was told by CPS, lawyers, everyone was if you can't prove that he is using and he has broken up with her, then there's nothing you can do.
00:28:37.900 --> 00:28:46.380
One lawyer actually told me, and this is probably one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard, is as soon as I found all the criminal records, I called my attorney.
00:28:46.460 --> 00:28:51.339
Um, and before the divorce was even final, I said, look at all this information that I've pulled for you.
00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:53.420
I've basically done all of your legal research.
00:28:53.579 --> 00:29:01.500
Now I need you to help me, and I need you to get some kind of protective order to keep this man away from my children, from my from my child, sorry.
00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:08.779
And um, and she honestly said to me, Um, no one is going to care.
00:29:09.339 --> 00:29:13.180
Uh and she said, she said, I still can't believe this.
00:29:13.339 --> 00:29:15.900
Um I'm flabbergasted just saying it out loud.
00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:24.460
She said, Many of the judges in your county use cocaine and they are not going to care.
00:29:27.579 --> 00:29:28.940
See that was what she said.
00:29:29.259 --> 00:29:30.859
This is what we're up against, right?
00:29:31.180 --> 00:29:33.819
Like it's you have to prove you're a victim.
00:29:34.059 --> 00:29:41.180
Once you prove, if you can prove, I mean, people can go with bruises and still be uh not believed.
00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:46.299
Um, you did all the work and still nobody wants to do anything.
00:29:46.539 --> 00:29:46.859
Right.
00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:49.660
I feel like that's been the general theme of my case.
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:51.500
Um, because we reopened the case.
00:29:51.660 --> 00:30:01.900
I ended up remarrying, which to be honest, I never thought was gonna happen in a million years because I think I was maybe around 36 when I got divorced.
00:30:02.220 --> 00:30:05.180
I had an infant that I was completely caring for.
00:30:05.339 --> 00:30:06.619
I had to go back to work.
00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:11.339
So I was just single momming it just every single day with a tiny person.
00:30:11.420 --> 00:30:16.299
Um, and I thought, okay, well, there's no way I'm ever gonna date again.
00:30:16.539 --> 00:30:18.220
That was just what I told myself.
00:30:18.460 --> 00:30:20.539
I was like, I'm never gonna get time to date.
00:30:20.619 --> 00:30:33.740
I mean, I'm still nursing this child, like who, you know, but I ended up um reconnecting, you know, with a friend and and we hit it off and we started dating, and he became the father figure that she needed.
00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:40.059
And he kind of stepped right in and said, you know, I I really care about you and I really care about your daughter.
00:30:40.220 --> 00:30:48.539
And so several years after we got married, you know, my daughter started to spend a little bit more time with my ex-husband.
00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:52.460
He had remarried at that point and now had another child.
00:30:52.700 --> 00:30:55.900
So he has three different children with three different women.
00:30:56.380 --> 00:31:07.339
And my daughter, at some point, we were very, very, we're getting very, very worried because she was coming back saying some really disturbing things that her father was saying to her.
00:31:07.420 --> 00:31:11.019
And we felt like there was psychological abuse going on and maybe more.
00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:19.339
And so we had hired a um a child psychologist to treat her when she was around four years old.
00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:20.779
And this was during the pandemic.
00:31:21.019 --> 00:31:25.339
So she was treating her virtually, but we thought, hey, whatever help we can get.
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:32.220
And so one day, my daughter at four years old made an outcry of abuse against her father.
00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:39.819
She said that he had thrown something at her head and that he was mean to her and that he called her stupid.
00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:47.259
And so, of course, I looked right to the psychologist and I was like, Well, you're the mandated reporter.
00:31:47.420 --> 00:31:50.059
And she said, There's nothing reportable here.
00:31:51.259 --> 00:31:51.980
I see.
00:31:52.059 --> 00:31:55.500
Oh my God, I this just pisses me off so much.
00:31:55.660 --> 00:31:56.700
So she didn't do anything.
00:31:56.779 --> 00:31:58.299
She didn't report it.
00:31:58.619 --> 00:32:10.940
Eventually, who um we had a nanny at that time that was helping us out because my husband and I were both working remotely, and we had just had a baby.
00:32:11.099 --> 00:32:17.339
So I had a four-year-old at home, and I also had a four-month-old at home when we went into lockdown.
00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:23.259
And so we're both trying to work our jobs, take care of these kids full-time because all the schools had closed down.
00:32:23.500 --> 00:32:28.940
And so at one point, we hired, you know, a few nannies and babysitters to come in for part of the day and help us.
00:32:29.099 --> 00:32:36.619
And my daughter ended up making the outcry of abuse to the babysitter, and she ended up reporting it to CPS.
00:32:36.700 --> 00:32:39.099
And CPS did nothing.
00:32:40.059 --> 00:32:41.099
Absolutely nothing.
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:42.380
Oh my god.
00:32:43.099 --> 00:33:14.220
It was so when I tell people, they either can't believe it, or they're the reaction that you just had, they're so uh, you know, uh disturbed and disgusted with this crooked, corrupt system that protective mothers are trying to constantly like it's like we're having war waged against us, and all we're really trying to do here is protect our kids.
00:33:14.779 --> 00:33:15.420
Right.
00:33:15.819 --> 00:33:35.980
I have a friend, I have to be vague, so I don't do any identifiers here, but the therapist that was seeing her children and still sees one of them had posted on her social media how a being a bad spouse does not mean you're a bad parent.
00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:41.660
And I said, Will it depends on what kind of context you're taking that?
00:33:41.740 --> 00:33:55.180
If you have two people who just don't love each other and they are just living as roommates, but they are still kind to each other, I suppose that's not a good spouse, it's a good roommate.
00:33:55.660 --> 00:34:00.539
And those individuals could then be good parents, I suppose.
00:34:01.099 --> 00:34:19.819
But if you are talking in the context of abuse, which this person gets referred to in high conflict co-parenting situations, which I can't say an actual statistic because I don't know it, but I would assume it's near 100% of those cases have to have some form of abuse happening.
00:34:19.980 --> 00:34:27.819
You can't make that statement because a bad spouse, an abusive spouse, 100% is a bad parent.
00:34:28.699 --> 00:34:29.900
Absolutely.
00:34:30.220 --> 00:34:40.139
And I just feel like the system just wants to be more forgiving for the abuser than for the parent who is being abused.
00:34:40.380 --> 00:34:42.860
So you're either not advocating enough.
00:34:43.019 --> 00:34:46.940
Why would you let your child be exposed to that situation for so long?
00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:56.619
You should have left, but we're not going to really say anything to the abuser because he or she is sorry for what they did, but you left them in that situation.
00:34:56.780 --> 00:35:00.460
Or if you try too hard to advocate for your kid, that's when you're the alienator.
00:35:01.500 --> 00:35:02.300
Absolutely.
00:35:02.539 --> 00:35:05.260
Oh, that just angers me so much.
00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:15.900
And the the judge that I had during my first um case, uh, we had gone to a temporary hearing, a temporary custody hearing.
00:35:16.059 --> 00:35:19.019
Uh, this was shortly after my ex-husband and I separated.
00:35:19.099 --> 00:35:21.980
So my daughter was maybe around 12 months old at the time.
00:35:22.300 --> 00:35:25.900
I was um still nursing her.
00:35:26.139 --> 00:35:34.219
She was, I mean, at that point, she was eating food, you know, but she was completely 100% breastfed.
00:35:34.619 --> 00:35:37.500
Um, she wasn't taking bottles yet.
00:35:37.739 --> 00:35:52.940
Um, and that judge, who was a man, by the way, thought that it would be a good idea to give overnight visitation to a man who tested positive for cocaine several times.
00:35:53.980 --> 00:35:54.539
How?
00:35:54.780 --> 00:35:56.460
How is how is that okay?
00:35:56.780 --> 00:35:59.420
I never understand any of the decisions that are made.
00:35:59.579 --> 00:36:03.659
In my case, I feel like they are some of the worst decisions ever.
00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:11.340
You know, luckily, he he meaning my ex-husband, he stayed away a lot after that initial period.
00:36:11.500 --> 00:36:17.659
So mostly it was, you know, my daughter was really being raised by myself and my current husband.
00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:22.219
You know, he stepped in, we were dating um from when she was about two.
00:36:22.860 --> 00:36:27.099
And, you know, he was, he did all the things that a father should do.
00:36:27.260 --> 00:36:32.059
He taught her how to ride a bike, he taught her how to read, he helped potty train her.
00:36:32.300 --> 00:36:42.219
Um, and you know, a couple years later, when we went back into court trying to request a modification, um, I got a female judge.
00:36:42.460 --> 00:36:46.699
And I thought, okay, great, someone will finally get this.
00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:58.460
You know, and I was reading up about her online, and she was saying, Oh, I'm I'm a mother, you know, I um I'm a domestic violence survivor.
00:36:58.699 --> 00:37:02.699
And I thought, oh, good, she's gonna get it like right away.
00:37:02.860 --> 00:37:05.900
She's gonna be able to see through his bullshit.
00:37:06.460 --> 00:37:08.380
No, nope, not at all.
00:37:08.539 --> 00:37:10.059
She treated me like dirt.
00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:10.860
How?
00:37:11.179 --> 00:37:13.420
She told me she wasted her time.
00:37:14.219 --> 00:37:18.619
She was antagonistic to me during the entire two-day trial.
00:37:19.019 --> 00:37:22.139
She raised her voice at me, she rolled her eyes.
00:37:22.300 --> 00:37:26.780
I mean, it was yeah, it was like basically being abused all over again.
00:37:26.860 --> 00:37:49.579
And it was like I had if someone could have taken all the nasty things that my ex-husband had done to me and all the disgusting text messages where he's calling me a loser and a leech, and you know, that I'm pathetic and that my husband is, you know, a goofy this or that, just you know, like bombarding us with insults and that.
00:37:49.820 --> 00:38:00.860
Um, it was like if someone could ball that all up and then hurl it at you like like it's a baseball at a hundred miles an hour.
00:38:01.099 --> 00:38:03.500
That's what I felt like during that trial.
00:38:03.739 --> 00:38:05.980
Um, and that was a couple years ago.
00:38:06.139 --> 00:38:15.019
And so that judge gave my husband, but gave my ex-husband, sorry, 50-50 possession of my child.
00:38:15.099 --> 00:38:17.900
Because here in Texas, there are two different things.
00:38:18.059 --> 00:38:24.940
It's not just straight custody, it's conservatorship, which is where you split up making all the choices about your child.
00:38:25.179 --> 00:38:37.900
So a lot of people will have joint conservatorship where you make big choices together, like education and psychological treatment, big medical things, but you'll have different periods of possession.
00:38:38.619 --> 00:38:43.500
This woman gave my ex-husband 50-50 possession.
00:38:43.820 --> 00:38:50.619
So now my I think when the trial finally wrapped up, my daughter was maybe about five years old.
00:38:50.860 --> 00:39:01.179
She had to go back and forth, week on, week off, which A, I felt was completely inappropriate for the situation, but also very inappropriate for her age.
00:39:01.340 --> 00:39:02.460
It's very young.
00:39:02.780 --> 00:39:03.980
Yeah, that's too young.
00:39:04.139 --> 00:39:04.699
Yeah.
00:39:05.019 --> 00:39:06.539
But I feel terrible.
00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:20.460
50-50 with a man whose baby was born addicted to meth, who has two counts of, I mean, I guess not actually filed reported abuse.
00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:24.300
I mean, his daughter said there two times that there was abuse.
00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:28.139
A man who had nothing to do with her.
00:39:28.460 --> 00:39:31.579
When you're oh my god, and 50% just like that.
00:39:31.739 --> 00:39:32.380
Yep.
00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:34.059
Yeah.
00:39:34.380 --> 00:39:36.219
That is so awful.
00:39:36.460 --> 00:39:40.539
And I'm not the only person that that that judge has done that to.
00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:48.699
And um I guess the I can't I can't ever say silver lining because there's never really a silver lining to any of this.
00:39:48.940 --> 00:39:57.820
But one thing that I am thankful for is that um, so judges here, they serve a to a term of about four years once they're elected.
00:39:58.059 --> 00:39:59.980
Many of them are re-elected.
00:40:00.219 --> 00:40:05.659
That judge in particular served one term and then lost her re-election.
00:40:05.900 --> 00:40:08.380
So she is no longer a judge.
00:40:09.019 --> 00:40:22.380
I am very thankful because it means that she cannot keep uh destroying families, specifically children and protective mothers, um, any longer.
00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:28.539
And to my knowledge, she has not run again, you know, even in a different district.
00:40:29.019 --> 00:40:39.500
Um, but the damage that she did in the four years that she was behind the bench um put a lot of kids in danger.
00:40:40.699 --> 00:40:42.539
That's why I don't understand.
00:40:42.860 --> 00:40:44.699
Like, I just don't understand.
00:40:44.860 --> 00:40:47.659
Why are you going to take the chance with a kid?
00:40:49.739 --> 00:41:00.460
And I think the attitude generally here in Texas, and I can't speak for everyone because you know, you might find a particular lawyer that um it really cares.
00:41:00.699 --> 00:41:09.019
You know, I've I've you know followed some people on Instagram that seem like they are, you know, really fierce about protecting children.
00:41:09.260 --> 00:41:30.860
Um, but a lot of them I don't know personally, and it's really hard to know what a lawyer is like um based on, you know, their website or their ads, you know, but um it seems like the general feeling here in Texas is we don't want you to have any kind of reproductive choices as a woman.
00:41:31.019 --> 00:41:36.219
We want to make sure that we are repopulating the earth as fast as possible.
00:41:36.380 --> 00:41:44.539
But once your children are here on this planet and your pregnancy is over, we are not going to do a thing to protect your children.
00:41:44.780 --> 00:41:49.500
And we're certainly not going to let you have the majority of the say of what happens to your children.
00:41:50.699 --> 00:41:51.420
Oh my God.
00:41:51.659 --> 00:41:57.179
Um, I know we we kind of went off of reproductive coversion, but I'm glad we did.
00:41:57.260 --> 00:41:57.420
Yeah.
00:41:57.739 --> 00:42:02.619
Because I mean, this stuff, it just it really pisses me off.
00:42:02.860 --> 00:42:04.699
And and it wasn't that long ago.
00:42:04.860 --> 00:42:06.300
COVID was not that long ago.
00:42:06.380 --> 00:42:10.300
We're not talking about 1980, 1990, even 2000.
00:42:10.699 --> 00:42:13.340
It's that is so frustrating.
00:42:13.900 --> 00:42:16.619
Um, okay.
00:42:17.019 --> 00:42:27.099
And and to be honest, I mean, just to circle back around to reproductive coercion, my ex-husband did start to pressure me to have another baby.
00:42:27.260 --> 00:42:33.739
And I don't mean, you know, like right before we separated when my daughter was maybe 11 months old.
00:42:33.980 --> 00:42:37.260
I mean two weeks after I gave birth.
00:42:37.739 --> 00:42:43.260
So I don't want to go into two TMI, but there are a lot of traumatic things that can happen to your body.
00:42:43.420 --> 00:42:50.380
First of all, birth itself is just traumatic, whether vaginally, C-section, you gave birth prematurely, whatever.
00:42:50.699 --> 00:42:53.179
Birth is so traumatic.
00:42:53.420 --> 00:43:01.820
It is, it's the the pain, the changes in your body, the things that can happen, just being in the hospital with on all those monitors and everything.
00:43:02.059 --> 00:43:07.260
Um, I had a little bit of a rough birth um physically.
00:43:07.500 --> 00:43:10.380
And it was really hard to physically recover.
00:43:10.699 --> 00:43:18.860
I had stitches in some certain places, and I couldn't climb up the stairs for a couple weeks after I gave birth to that baby.
00:43:19.019 --> 00:43:23.820
I had I was living in a two-story house at the time, and I had to pretty much just remain on the first floor.
00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:25.659
Steps were out of the question.
00:43:25.900 --> 00:43:42.539
Um, and even with that, even with being two weeks postpartum and the doctor not even giving me the okay to have sex, he started really pressuring me to, you know, when are we going to give her a little brother?
00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:49.500
I was like, that is some of the most unsexiest shit you could ever say.
00:43:49.820 --> 00:43:56.780
Right to a woman who is not sleeping, who is, I mean, let's say, let's just say ever.
00:43:56.940 --> 00:43:59.500
Let's just say don't say that to women ever.
00:44:00.059 --> 00:44:11.099
But it's especially, you know, insensitive to say to a woman who has just given birth, who is tired and exhausted and you know, swollen and can't climb up the stairs.
00:44:11.500 --> 00:44:13.500
Fluids coming out of every orifice.
00:44:13.659 --> 00:44:13.820
Yeah.
00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:17.500
Just like read the room, dude.
00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:18.139
Come on.
00:44:18.380 --> 00:44:20.539
Like, yeah.
00:44:20.780 --> 00:44:33.260
And and it, but the funny thing is if is if you were having this conversation with, let's say, his current wife, she would probably think, you know, she hit the jackpot.
00:44:33.980 --> 00:44:41.260
She has absolutely no idea the things that she has been lied about, the lies that she has been told about me.
00:44:41.900 --> 00:44:45.659
And she um doubles down on it.
00:44:46.619 --> 00:45:02.619
She has made, you know, comments online thanking that therapist that basically ignored her ethical and legal duty to report to CPS, thanking her and vilifying me.
00:45:03.500 --> 00:45:05.900
And uh it's it's terrible.
00:45:06.059 --> 00:45:11.260
I don't at this point in time, you know, my daughter is several years older.
00:45:11.420 --> 00:45:15.739
Um she's still very much a kid but she's older, starting to understand more.
00:45:15.900 --> 00:45:24.460
It's difficult for her, but the best thing that I can do is just keep being the stable parent.
00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:43.579
And the more time that she spends with us, the more time that she sees her mother being treated well by my husband, you know, being respected, being supported emotionally, you know, physically all of that, it's it's better for her in the end.
00:45:43.980 --> 00:45:44.619
And that's it.
00:45:44.699 --> 00:45:55.900
And what a what a difficult position to be in to have to be that stable, calm parent that's not bashing the other parent that's abusive.
00:45:57.019 --> 00:46:08.059
And meanwhile you're screaming in your own mind like this is not okay what he's doing he's an asshole what he did to me what he's doing to you.
00:46:08.300 --> 00:46:14.940
Not saying all of that because you actually truly do have the best interest of your daughter in mind.
00:46:15.260 --> 00:46:15.900
Right.
00:46:16.860 --> 00:46:20.460
And it and it's it's just a very unfair situation.
00:46:20.619 --> 00:46:21.900
You didn't ask for the abuse.
00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:27.820
You didn't ask for anything that happened after the abuse or the ongoing abuse to happen.
00:46:28.139 --> 00:46:34.460
And you just have to roll with the punches and do what you can.
00:46:35.099 --> 00:46:35.739
Yeah.
00:46:37.739 --> 00:46:43.820
Um okay I'm gonna I'm gonna do a 180 and pull us back to reproductive coercion.
00:46:44.139 --> 00:46:51.019
So what you're passionate about that specifically what um what are you doing with it?
00:46:51.659 --> 00:46:59.820
So um you know one of the things is in the last several years I've uh taken to volunteering more.
00:47:00.539 --> 00:47:12.219
I did um you know the the 40 hours of training with a local um domestic violence and sexual assault um you know uh assistance group here in Texas.
00:47:12.300 --> 00:47:19.579
Um and so you know I wanted to make sure that I was helping other women as much as I could and children.
00:47:21.260 --> 00:47:34.539
About I think it's almost a year ago now I was asked to um sit on the Southern Regional Advisory Committee for the domestic violence hotline.
00:47:34.699 --> 00:47:36.860
I've incredibly enjoyed doing that.
00:47:37.500 --> 00:47:42.380
You know I also last year joined the Storytellers collective.
00:47:42.780 --> 00:47:52.539
So I try to share my story as much as I can not just as a warning but to let other people know that they are not alone.
00:47:52.940 --> 00:47:57.099
This is happening everywhere and I don't just mean everywhere in the U.S.
00:47:57.260 --> 00:48:00.139
I mean globally this is a huge problem.
00:48:00.940 --> 00:48:32.780
With regard to reproductive coercion specifically what I'm trying to do and Texas is a tough state to crack but my goal is to try to have reproductive coercion codified into the law and add it in either to um our coercion laws about domestic violence or our sexual assault laws and have it actually be listed as a crime.
00:48:33.099 --> 00:49:21.739
Reproductive coercion is not really listed as a crime anywhere in the US um stealthing specifically which is the you know we talked about the removal of a condom without the other party's um knowledge stealthing is really only recognized in about three states in the US it's California Maine and Washington and in none of those states is it a crime meaning if you wanted to get any kind of you know relief or justice you would have to file a civil lawsuit so you really you'd basically be going for maybe you know attorney's fees, punitive damages it's not a crime.
00:49:22.059 --> 00:49:27.739
It's not treated like sexual assault um and so my goal is to change that.
00:49:27.980 --> 00:49:47.019
And so you're starting in Texas are you hoping to then take it I feel like if I can crack it in Texas Yeah I'm trying to get it everywhere everywhere that I can yeah yeah oh wow that's amazing that's amazing.
00:49:47.260 --> 00:49:53.820
I have a question did you did you become a paralegal because of your story?
00:49:54.059 --> 00:49:56.539
Or were you is that what you were doing before?
00:49:56.940 --> 00:49:59.420
I've been a paralegal for 22 years.
00:49:59.579 --> 00:50:15.340
I've never done family law I always had I think my focus has been a little bit varied but I've done more corporate and um you know privacy and information security type of stuff.
00:50:15.420 --> 00:50:21.340
And then for the last several years I've done a whole lot of work kind of like on the municipal local government level.
00:50:21.659 --> 00:50:45.579
But I feel like being a paralegal has and and gaining all this knowledge just from personal experience about the family court has emphasized my um my fight in this and I've done so much legislative research in the background.
00:50:45.739 --> 00:50:49.820
And so my paralegal knowledge has really come in handy there.
00:50:49.980 --> 00:51:05.260
And I've connected with a lot of people a lot of other paralegals and divorce coaches and you know um people who are trying to make you know reform in the family court and so I've made all of these wonderful connections and I feel like I've just gained so much knowledge.
00:51:05.420 --> 00:51:14.059
And so one of the things that I have created my Instagram handle is called the Knowledge Exchange for abuse survivors.
00:51:14.300 --> 00:51:42.139
And essentially I I kind of created that because I've learned so much from other people just going through this, you know, gosh I mean when I started this all it was almost a decade ago that I separated from my ex-husband and had to start to really educate myself on not only family court law, but the reality of it that you don't hear about the way it actually goes down.
00:51:42.380 --> 00:51:50.059
And so now I feel like I can go ahead and pass that knowledge on to other people and I'm always always learning things from the people around me.
00:51:50.219 --> 00:51:59.019
So if I can always keep it as a constant knowledge exchange that is a a key priority for me.
00:51:59.579 --> 00:52:02.300
Well so two things that I wanted to point out.
00:52:02.460 --> 00:52:18.059
So one is even though you didn't you have not worked in family law, still being a paralegal and having a little bit closer access, I suppose, to some great legal minds and legal help, you still faced all of these challenges with your daughter.
00:52:18.300 --> 00:52:26.380
So I do want to point that out because I know some people are going to be out there saying well I don't know anybody I don't know anything about the system.
00:52:26.619 --> 00:52:31.019
It's a huge mountain to climb but it's not a hopeless mountain to climb.
00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:50.940
And I guess within that brings me to my next point that I love about survivors who have gone through the trauma that they've gone through and then they are turning around and saying what can I do to help the next person because unfortunately there's going to be an endless line of victims to follow.
00:52:51.179 --> 00:52:57.900
Hopefully one day it will end but um in in reality it's going to be a while if it if it we do get to that point.
00:52:58.219 --> 00:53:05.099
But for you to take that and wanting and want to pass that knowledge on to others of here, this is what I found out.
00:53:05.179 --> 00:53:11.420
So you don't have to go hit the books to find out some of this information or talk with all these other people that's really great.
00:53:11.579 --> 00:53:12.699
I love that you're doing that.
00:53:12.940 --> 00:53:13.340
Thank you.
00:53:13.579 --> 00:53:35.340
So can you say again how people can connect with you what that is so I'll I'll provide you with my Instagram handle but I am also on LinkedIn people can connect with me that way and you can also get my contact information from the National Domestic violence hotline because I am still serving on that regional advisory committee.
00:53:35.420 --> 00:53:54.219
And so I am always happy to to lend an ear um you know as a paralegal I can't specifically give out legal advice that wouldn't be ethical but I can lend a friendly ear uh and give friendly advice especially specifically about things happening here in central Texas.
00:53:54.460 --> 00:53:54.619
Okay.
00:53:54.780 --> 00:53:59.260
So before we close did we miss anything that you wanted to talk about I don't think so.
00:53:59.500 --> 00:53:59.820
Okay.
00:53:59.980 --> 00:54:52.460
I know we had I know we had that little diversion but I liked that um okay so before we finally close is do you have any lasting words of wisdom or encouragement that you would like to leave with listeners so my message to anyone who has been a victim of any kind of abuse I know that it can feel overwhelming especially if you are the victim of emotional verbal abuse psychological abuse if your partner or previous partner was a completely toxic person always remember that it is never your fault regardless of what anyone tells you.
00:54:52.699 --> 00:55:04.539
Even if you are hearing that from a judge who is trying to shame you or from an ex-partner it is never ever a victim's fault.
00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:19.260
And for the younger generation I urge you to listen to some of these stories that are being shared and passed around not just about the family court but just about relationships in general.
00:55:19.420 --> 00:55:33.900
And trust your gut if you feel like something is off in your relationship it's probably off and you are better off single than dead yeah incredibly important.
00:55:34.300 --> 00:55:47.099
Well thank you so much Lynn for joining me thank you for those final words and the whole conversation thank you so much um it was wonderful connecting and thank you so much for giving me the space to share all this yeah thanks.
00:55:47.340 --> 00:55:58.059
Thank you again Lynn for joining me today and thank you warriors for listening I've included the links Lynn was referring to as well as her one in three profile in the show notes.
00:55:58.219 --> 00:56:01.420
I will be back next week with another episode for you.
00:56:01.659 --> 00:56:23.980
Until then stay strong and wherever you are in your journey always remember you are not alone find more information register as a guest or leave a review by going to the website one and threepodcast.com that's the number one the number three podcast dot com.
00:56:24.219 --> 00:56:39.260
Follow one in three on Instagram Facebook and Twitter at one and three podcast to help me out please remember to rate review and subscribe one and three is a point five Pinoy production music written and performed by Tim Crow
