WEBVTT
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Hi, Warriors.
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Welcome to One in Three.
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I'm your host, Ingrid.
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Today's guest is courage and expertise in one powerful voice.
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She's joining us to share her personal experience with domestic violence as well as her professional insight as a PhD-trained negotiation and relationship scientist.
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Please join me in welcoming Dr.
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Meredith Thompson.
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Hi, Dr.
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Meredith.
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Thank you for joining me today and welcome to one in three.
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Thank you so much, Ingrid.
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I'm so stoked for our conversation.
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So am I.
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And I think this is going to be a really eye-opening conversation, probably for some.
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But before we get into all of that, could you just give us some background so we get to know you?
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Sure.
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Um, so in my day job, I am a negotiations professor, but my my absolute passion right now is um my business partner lab that I'm growing and it it came out of being stuck for at least 10 or 12 years too long in my first marriage that I didn't realize until I'd left how um bad it was for my well-being and how controlling my partner was about a whole lot of things.
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Um and so I just have this passion now for taking research.
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Um I'm my role is mostly as a researcher.
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And so being able to look at the relationship science and translate it for non-academic so that people can use it in their lives and help them.
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Particularly, I'm focused on helping people who are stuck in what I call relationship limbo, kind of one foot in, one foot out, helping them figure out like, do I stay, do I go?
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And um, because you and I both know those years that you're stuck, those are years you cannot get back.
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You're absolutely right.
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And you are this is perfect.
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I I have not had a guest on who has a research.
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I mean, I know I have had guests who have looked at research, but you're you're really into the research and experience, personal experience too.
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So I think this is going to be a really awesome conversation.
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Relationship limbo happens a lot because I think when people who have not been exposed to abuse or violence, it's hard to understand what is abuse.
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Like it abuse isn't always physical violence.
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Uh, physical violence definitely is abuse, but that's that's something that a lot of people struggle with is trying to determine if what's happening is abuse or not.
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So let's talk a little bit about that.
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Yes.
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I I mean, I will say I didn't realize what kind of relationship I was in until I was out of it.
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And I was talking with one of my research colleagues, you know, about some of the things that happened, especially in the latter years of the marriage.
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And um, she's the one that kind of helped me see like you were in an abusive situation.
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And, you know, I'm um that that was that kind of messed with my identity.
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And I think it probably does a lot of people because you don't see yourself being in that.
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I mean, I was the primary breadwinner, but I did not have control of the money.
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My spouse at the time did.
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And um, yeah, there's there can be, you know, physical abuse is awful.
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Um, and it leaves a mark, whereas other forms of abuse, emotional, sometimes sexual, financial abuse, you you don't see what happens because of it.
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I know there's no mark.
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And so I think for a lot of people, what it means is you just think on, you ruminate about it, like, did that really happen?
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Did he really say that?
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Or did she really do that?
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And um, you know, that rumination just keeps us stuck in like this vicious cycle.
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And the way I see it, you know, since um domestic abuse is really the goal of it is power and control.
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And if the uh one who is uh engaging in abusive activity, their goal is really to control you.
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And so if they can get you to doubt your own reality, doubt yourself, um that that's their goal is getting fulfilled.
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Yes, and they're so good at it because it's not constant constantly getting berated all the time.
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It's small comments, and then like you said, you're wondering, did did they really just say that?
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And then maybe it's followed by, oh hey, let's go watch our favorite show.
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It like nothing happened.
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Yeah, you get the you get both, right?
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I mean, if they were awful to us all the time, um that would be easier to, I think, to clock.
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But when there's some niceness versus some, I'll just say meanness, um, yeah, I mean it it it um messes with your brain.
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There was a point in time, the last year I was married where I seriously um considered getting hidden cameras in my house.
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One, so that I could get evidence of the behavior and really be clear with myself is like, is this what I'm experiencing or am I just like crazy?
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Because basically I was told I was crazy.
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Um, and then later I thought, oh, if I did that, I could show it to a friend who knows both of us and say, like, what is going on here?
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Like, is this okay or am I overreacting?
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Um, I never did do that, but um, I thought about it a number of times.
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And I wonder what would I have saved myself from that situation earlier if I had done it, and especially phone a friend who would have said, Meredith, this is not okay.
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Yeah, I think even if you don't show a friend, even if you're just tracking it, which is dangerous, especially now that there's apps, you can go on and it's not traceable and you can document everything there.
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But back before when it had to be like paper and pen, it's really it's a dangerous situation to be tracking all of that because they may be going through your things and they may find that.
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But if you're somehow able to keep a timeline of what's happening, you can go back and look yourself and be like, see, that did happen last time.
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I knew that, or they did say that.
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And I will say I kind of forgotten about it until this moment that the the during the last year, I had started a word, a password protected word document where I was logging things, just logging and journaling and just trying to get that clarity.
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And I did that because with the password protected, which I don't know that I would have thought about before.
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But several years before that, when I had been contemplating divorce, my then spouse came to me and he said, I know you're thinking about divorce.
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And I'm like, How do you know that?
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He said, Oh, I was I was on your computer trying to see like what you might want for Christmas.
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And in the moment I was like, Well, okay, but you know, that's BS.
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We we all know that's BS.
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And so you never know when when they're looking.
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And so, yeah, being being very safe and strategic as we can to um collect data so that we we we do get that clarity with ourselves.
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I would every once in a while when he would start screaming, I would grab my phone and just hit record.
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Oh wow.
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And uh I would send immediately send it to my sister and then delete it off my phone.
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Smart.
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Wow, it is smart.
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But even then, um, I just watched something.
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What did I watch recently?
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Where um, oh gosh, it was on YouTube.
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I get sucked into these YouTube things every once in a while.
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Don't we all?
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But it was this horrible story about this woman.
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She was a she was a physician, and she was in this abusive relationship and marriage, and she was diagnosed with cancer and she became very debilitated because of the cancer.
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But she started recording, and one time he took her phone as she was recording, so then you can hear it in her voice.
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She's like, give me back my phone.
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And you can tell she's just frantic because if he sees that she's recording, then who knows what would happen.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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And that's, you know, in large part, I would say because um all of the relationship science and data says that, you know, um abuse starts out less frequent, becomes more frequent, but it also escalates in severity.
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And so almost without fail, if somebody starts out with you know verbal or emotional abuse, eventually it will escalate to physical abuse.
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And um, so she had a right to be terrified.
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Yeah.
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Definitely.
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I I've had a friend who was saying, yeah, this person is okay in their relationship because she said it's not physical.
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And I said, Well, it's not physical yet, because it doesn't have to be physical.
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Yeah.
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And yeah, I think that's what it is, right?
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It escalates, like you said.
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And then I don't know, they they just feel like they've lost control.
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What they were doing does isn't working anymore.
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So they keep needing to step it up.
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Yeah.
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I was gonna say, I I think there's a lot of commentary, particularly in American society, that if it's not physical, oh, well, it's not, you know, it's not that big of a deal.
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Like it's just words, sticks and stones and all that stuff.
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And and so I think that's something um that we need to change the conversation about.
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I mean, we do it with teenagers who are bullied online.
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Um, and you know, all of us, I don't care how old we are, there's a 12-year-old that lives inside of us.
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You know, our 12-year-old self is still there.
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And so changing the conversation to one about where, you know, it's not just physical violence that matters, but it's it's the emotional, it's the financial, which is almost always there.
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If any other sort of abuse, like 98% of the time, they're controlling the money as well.
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Um, that those types of abuse have an impact and they do matter.
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It's not just like, you know, don't don't don't take things so personally.
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That that's that's not appropriate.
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Right.
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I broken bones, injuries, physical injuries, they're horrible.
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They are absolutely horrible.
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But you can go into the hospital and you can say, My arm is broken.
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I need this fixed.
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And that that emotional abuse sits there.
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And not only do you have the abuse that's happening to you, but then you also have your own blame that you put on yourself for totally allowing it to happen or staying too long, or you know, why can't I just move on?
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Like everyone else tells me I should.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I think um, for a lot of people, and I will say at times myself included, um I can think or recognize and and and say to myself, you know, I at some point I started teaching him how to teach me.
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I taught him that he could do this.
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And it's not that we want to blame the victim, but you know, it's also made it when I started dating again, like I'm gonna teach the people I date how to treat me.
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Um, there's a book I read shortly after I started dating, I believe it's called The Confidence Code.
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And that is one of the uh principles of the book.
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It's and it's focused on women and it's teach people how to treat you.
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And so I would do that from the get-go.
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You know, if if a guy was texting and then he kind of ghosted me or whatever, I I had one in particular that he kind of got flaky and ghosted, and I was like, okay, whatever.
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And then he could tried to come back several times and like reinitiate.
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And I'm like, nope.
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I mean, I would just ignore it.
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And um, weirdly enough, like 18 months later, maybe two years, I can't remember, um I saw this guy move in across the parking lot from my townhouse.
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And he was out there playing with the dog.
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And I got in the car and I waved hello and went on.
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And then I saw him, I don't know, like a month or two later, and I realized it was that guy that had ghosted me and tried to reach reach back.
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And we live in a smaller, we at that time we lived in a small town.
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And so um he he texted, I can't remember if I texted him.
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I think he texted me after I left that second time because I was like, I I did this slow wave, like, oh crap, I think I actually know who that is.
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And um he said, Hey, yeah, it is me.
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Um, I noticed you've had a man around, and so you know, everything's cool, but it was creepy.
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It was really creepy.
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Oh, that is creepy.
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Yeah.
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Did he move there on purpose?
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I have no idea.
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But um anyway, so yeah, I mean, teaching people how to treat you, that I think from the from day one, if we have anybody listening who's maybe um back on the dating market or thinking about it, like that, I think that is critical.
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And we're not responsible for someone else's behavior, but we we can play a role in shaping what we will tolerate and garbage like that.
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I decided from the get-go, I was not gonna tolerate.
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Yeah, and isn't that it's almost completely contradictory to what we've always been told is relationships are difficult.
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You need to make it work.
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I remember when we first started dating, yeah, I was saying, I just I don't like how he does this.
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And somebody she was I worked with, she was older, and she said, you know, you need to let a lot of things go.
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Guys are guys, and you need to just let it go, not pick on that.
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And so I let, I kept letting things slide.
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And I'm not going to completely blame her because um, I mean, I I wanted the relationship to work.
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And those who are who are married, they are told that you don't just don't just like flip and get divorced.
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You need to work at it.
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Marriage takes a lot of work.
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And that's something I think so many people don't understand until they've been in, especially if they have children together, is that is never a decision somebody makes quickly, lightly.
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Um yeah, I I I think I cried every day the year before I finally called it quits after several attempts to call it quits.
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And so it is like it, it's not something that we make lightly.
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But kind of back to your point, I think this is where in the relationship, because they might evolve, but especially before we get into relationships, we have to know what our deal breakers are.
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We have to know what our non-n-negotiables are.
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And, you know, I would say across the board, any sort of coercive control or abuse is like nope, deal breaker.
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But, you know, there may be other things that people have as deal breakers.
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But if you don't know those going in, you don't know them on the front end, you know, that can that contributes, I think, to a slippery slope.
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So being really clear and, you know.
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Yeah.
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Well, like you mentioned, there's that 12-year-old that's still inside of all of us.
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And what would you want that 12-year-old to endure?
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What are you willing to let that 12-year-old take on?
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Yes, yes.
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That's what I I really thought about too, um, especially as I started dating later.
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And actually, it was the thing that finally motivated me to call it quits for good, is um, would I want, would I want my children, would I want their partners to treat them this way?
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And um, you know, if we wouldn't want our sons or daughters to to be treated this way by a partner, like that gives that gives us a lot of data to work with to figure out like, hey, is this something we're gonna tolerate or not?
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Yeah.
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And I think kids, children, it's a really big, um, important thing to bring up because a lot of people will say, I want to stay with this person for the children.
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And I don't want to break up the the marriage because of the children, but you have to flip it.
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If anything, that should be what pushes you to get out.
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Yes, yes, yes.
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So many of the people I talk to um related to um with respect to like figuring out whether they want to stay or go, one of the biggest things that keeps them in the relationship is children.
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And I I know it did for me.
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Um, you know, I was raised in a very high-demand religion where if you don't get divorced, if you get divorced, one, Jesus won't love you anymore, and two, you'll be a bad parent.
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You'll be a bad, especially a bad mom.
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And um I didn't know at the time what the research was about children being in high conflict families or having parents who are in high conflict marriages, and um there was a moment, I guess just a few months um before I I finally pulled the plug on things when I was standing in the kitchen of my house and my spouse had just walked off after an interaction, and I thought, oh my gosh, my children are observing and learning horrendous relationship dynamics.
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Um, they're either learning that it's okay to treat a partner this way, or it's okay for them to be treated this way by a partner.
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And that that was the, you know, they were the thing that kept me in the relationship probably too long because I thought I was doing what was best for them.
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But now at that moment I recognized, oh crap, you know, this is not what's best for them.
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And, you know, I think in some ways each of them have repeated some of those um dynamics or or just behaviors in certain ways.
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And I think they're learning from them as they get older and have more experience in relationships.
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But that's that's my biggest regret in my divorce was not getting out sooner because yeah, it was it was really harmful for the for my sons.
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I think a common thought process too when people are getting divorced and they have children is thinking that the other parent, the abusive parent, wasn't abusive to the children.
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They were only abusive to their spouse.
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So that makes them they're not a bad parent because they weren't mean to the kids.
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But any parent who is abusing the mother or the father of their children, by default, they are not a good parent.
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Yes, yes, yeah.
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And and children are soaking up so much more than we think they are.
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I know when we would have conflict, we would try and go in our bedroom and do it quietly.
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But um, there's things, especially my eldest child has shared with me since then.
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Like, yeah, I heard you and dad talking about blah, blah, blah.
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And I was just like, oh no.
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It just like, oh, it just makes me cringe.
00:19:07.579 --> 00:19:13.099
But um, yeah, so they're picking up on a lot more than we think and probably hope that they are.
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:13.900
Yeah.
00:19:14.140 --> 00:19:22.859
Uh so I want to go back to a word, and I use this term all the time as escalates because that's what happens in abusive situations.
00:19:23.259 --> 00:19:28.059
But I want to bring it up because I just saw somebody post the other day.
00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:35.019
Uh, they had created a post about escalation and spotting red flags before things escalate.
00:19:35.099 --> 00:20:01.259
And somebody had commented and said, I wish we could get rid of the word escalates in terms of domestic abuse or violence, because it it should instead be worded that how do they state it, that this is just the reaction due to the abuser's realization of loss of control or something, some very long-winded.
00:20:01.579 --> 00:20:18.940
And I I get I get that person's point of uh trying to make sure that the focus remains, I suppose, on the abuser, that they're making this conscious effort of escalation, that it's not, I don't know.
00:20:19.019 --> 00:20:20.059
Uh what do you think about it?
00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:21.180
Interesting.
00:20:21.980 --> 00:20:22.539
Yeah.
00:20:22.779 --> 00:20:25.099
Um, I think I'd have to noodle on it some more.
00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:29.579
I get, but I think my knee-jerk reaction, you know, is is it makes sense?
00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:57.019
It's a lot of words to say basically escalate, but um, you know, the if it drives home the the fact, the reality, according to the data, that it does grow in severity, like because, you know, maybe after a while verbal abuse doesn't have the intended effect, um, then yeah, behavior becomes more aggressive, more egregious.
00:20:57.180 --> 00:20:59.259
And so yeah, I don't know.
00:20:59.339 --> 00:21:00.140
What are your thoughts?
00:21:00.460 --> 00:21:04.619
I didn't I I don't know that you could take the word escalate out.
00:21:04.700 --> 00:21:06.460
I mean, that's exactly what happens.
00:21:06.859 --> 00:21:07.819
I understand.
00:21:08.859 --> 00:21:26.700
I suppose if you were speaking to the general public and just make a comment of abuse escalates and just leave it at that with no context of typically the abusers will it's I don't know, to be honest.
00:21:26.859 --> 00:21:33.980
I I'm I'm with you that it's a very long-winded explanation to more or less get to the same point.
00:21:35.259 --> 00:21:46.380
And escalates to me has sort of a stronger feeling behind it that you like escalation means you're you're going up.
00:21:46.539 --> 00:21:47.339
Just right.
00:21:47.660 --> 00:21:48.299
I don't know.
00:21:48.539 --> 00:21:48.859
Yeah.
00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:59.660
I wonder if you know, for some people it the the word that's more um in line with their experience is um intensify.
00:22:00.700 --> 00:22:12.940
Because I think intensify can mean you know, it gets more frequent and or it gets more aggressive or more um threatening to somebody's safety.
00:22:13.339 --> 00:22:17.660
So intensify might be another another way of thinking about it.
00:22:17.740 --> 00:22:17.900
Yeah.
00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:18.220
Yeah.
00:22:18.460 --> 00:22:27.420
I I tend I tend to lead line lean towards whatever Language survivors want to use, they should have the power to do that.
00:22:27.579 --> 00:22:31.980
Like we shouldn't be um trying to control their words.
00:22:32.059 --> 00:22:32.779
So you know.
00:22:33.099 --> 00:22:34.940
So um yeah.
00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:53.259
I actually heard I'm going off, not on what we were going to talk about, but it was more terminology that I heard was that uh instead of calling abusers abuser, they are to be called those who choose to abuse.
00:22:53.819 --> 00:23:09.339
I think that that does hit home that it is a choice, that it's not that there's the excuses of, well, I was abused as a child, so of course, this is just my course of this is the life course that I'm going to go down.
00:23:09.420 --> 00:23:12.700
I'm just an abuser, but it is a choice.
00:23:13.579 --> 00:23:14.140
Yes.
00:23:14.380 --> 00:23:21.099
Well, I I like that phrasing because it places accountability where it belongs.
00:23:21.339 --> 00:23:27.019
And I think so often those who choose to abuse just refuse all accountability.
00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:31.019
And so it um it really drives that home.
00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:41.420
Now, whether they take accountability or not is a an entirely different thing, but it is emphasizing that this is a choice and um they're using it for a purpose.
00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:42.140
Yes.
00:23:42.940 --> 00:23:49.819
And I mean, it doesn't matter what words we use, they're still going to deny it and refuse any kind of accountability for it.
00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:50.220
Yeah.
00:23:50.380 --> 00:24:03.099
But actually, a few years ago, I got a shirt that really makes me smile because this issue of accountability, I think, is is fundamental and we don't talk about it enough, especially in close relationships.
00:24:03.339 --> 00:24:08.220
Um it's very simply on the front of it says accountability is sexy.
00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:12.700
And I think I know.
00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:18.380
Like if I could go back, I actually developed a 20-item list of things I was looking for in a new partner.
00:24:18.539 --> 00:24:37.099
And I kind of had that in there, but I would go back and add that very specifically because um, and it came to me after um kind of somebody in my broader circle kind of flaked in his marriage and on his kids and just like took off for a period of time, leaving his wife at the time with just all kinds of stuff.
00:24:37.259 --> 00:24:44.220
And he like the the the lack of accountability just I think in part destroyed their relationship.
00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:53.180
And I mean, it's one of the things I profoundly appreciate about my current partner is he is willing to be accountable.
00:24:53.259 --> 00:24:54.859
And that is so damn hot.
00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:59.339
You know, you if somebody's if somebody's accountable, you are safe with them.
00:24:59.500 --> 00:25:12.940
It doesn't mean you're not gonna have conflict, but you I know if something gets wonky in our relationship or we communicate poorly, or one of us is grumpy, I can always go to him and say, jail, this happened and I'm feeling you know really crappy about it.
00:25:13.099 --> 00:25:16.779
And I know, you know, he's not gonna generally get defensive.
00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:20.380
Um he's gonna want to talk about it.
00:25:20.539 --> 00:25:24.539
He has never, in the almost 10 years we've been together, raised his voice at me.
00:25:24.859 --> 00:25:35.259
Like when people are accountable, especially romantic partners, like that's that's something you can build a foundation on and a and a sexy one at that is that that's the way I think about it.
00:25:35.579 --> 00:25:36.220
For sure.
00:25:36.380 --> 00:25:41.420
Because, like you said, you can trust somebody that is accountable for their actions.
00:25:41.740 --> 00:25:46.380
Because if they do something wrong, they're going to up own up to it.
00:25:46.779 --> 00:25:51.019
And oh gosh, the defensiveness of there's always a reason.
00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:58.539
Well, I did that because she did this, or I did that because I thought that she did this.
00:25:58.940 --> 00:25:59.579
Yeah.
00:25:59.819 --> 00:26:00.140
Yeah.
00:26:00.619 --> 00:26:06.619
I saw another, gosh, I I have this is why I'm so behind on doing all of my work that I'm supposed to be doing.
00:26:06.700 --> 00:26:08.940
Because I can talk on these little things.
00:26:09.180 --> 00:26:10.619
I saw another post.
00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:12.460
Uh, this is all LinkedIn stuff.
00:26:12.539 --> 00:26:24.940
Um, but it was somebody said you could tell the difference between an abuser and a victim, because the abuser, when they're confronted with what they did, they have an excuse for it.
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:30.220
So they won't necessarily say, I held a knife to her throat.
00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:31.980
They would say, sir, or ma'am.
00:26:32.059 --> 00:26:42.299
I'm not going to assume one way or the other, but for this purpose, I'm going to say, sir, is the the uh abuser, but sir, you held that knife up to her throat.
00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:53.180
And he's not going to say, Yes, I did, but he's going to say, Well, of course that happened because she, I thought she was cheating on me.
00:26:53.339 --> 00:26:53.579
Yeah.
00:26:53.819 --> 00:27:00.299
And then you asked the victim, ma'am, you held that, did you pull that knife out to his throat?
00:27:00.539 --> 00:27:06.539
Well, yes, I I did put a knife to his throat because I couldn't handle the abuse anymore.
00:27:06.859 --> 00:27:08.779
Or something along those lines.
00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:13.259
But they were saying that's the way that you could tell the difference between the victim and an abuser.
00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:15.019
And interesting.
00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:17.099
I think it's an interesting concept.
00:27:17.180 --> 00:27:20.619
I don't know that that's a foolproof way to do that though.
00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:22.299
Yes.
00:27:22.619 --> 00:27:23.099
Yes.
00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:35.660
But I think, you know, that's why, especially early on in our relationships, looking for that accountability, because you know, there's there's the honeymoon period of relationships and you may not have much conflict, but it's gonna come.
00:27:35.900 --> 00:27:54.140
And it doesn't mean either party did anything bad or wrong, but you know, maybe it was a miscommunication or just um unmet needs or a uh conflict between the couple's needs, but um recognizing early on if there's that willingness to be accountable, to me, that's a deal breaker.
00:27:54.299 --> 00:27:56.700
Like I will never have another relationship.
00:27:56.859 --> 00:28:02.059
And even to some degree, I would say in other relationships, not even in romantic relationships.
00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:32.140
Um, you know, if a relationship is super one-sided, or, you know, you're gonna get together with friends and one of them flakes at the last minute, or you know, you know, there's there's other opportunities in relationships where I think accountability is is also important because somebody who's willing to be accountable, they're not, they're also not gonna feel I think the need to control other people because they they they're like, I control myself, I control my outcomes at least to some degree.
00:28:32.380 --> 00:28:34.700
They don't need to control anybody else.
00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:35.900
You're right.
00:28:36.140 --> 00:28:41.660
Well, and if they're not taking accountability, they're trying to twist the narrative to make it not their fault.
00:28:41.819 --> 00:28:42.220
Oh, yeah.
00:28:42.380 --> 00:28:45.339
And so it is, it is in a way controlling other people.
00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:47.819
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:48.140 --> 00:28:58.059
So, okay, so that's one thing that people could recognize if they're in a relationship where their partner is not or never rarely, whatever, takes accountability.
00:28:58.140 --> 00:28:59.099
What are other signs?
00:28:59.180 --> 00:29:13.420
We always I always say get out before it gets too bad, but I'm not always great about describing the different things that can happen or that do happen while you're in that relationship before it does escalate.
00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:14.859
Yes, yes.
00:29:15.099 --> 00:29:22.859
You know, um, I the older I get, the the more firmly I believe um in listening to our bodies.
00:29:23.019 --> 00:29:28.059
And I think especially often women are socialized, raised to ignore that.
00:29:28.220 --> 00:29:36.700
Like when we're in danger, our body is screaming at us, you're in danger, something's wrong, get out of here, you know, get to your car, lock the doors, whatever it is.
00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:51.420
Um and so really listening to that um, I think is super important, you know, even if it's just, you know, a lot of times I think people can be overwhelmed by um what's the behaviors in their relationship.
00:29:51.579 --> 00:29:57.740
And especially if, you know, one day there's nice, like anytime we had a conflict, my my ex would bring flowers.
00:29:57.819 --> 00:29:59.980
He would never apologize, but he would bring flowers.
00:30:00.059 --> 00:30:03.339
And I was just like, after all, I'm like buying flowers is not a big deal.
00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:04.460
Give me a break.
00:30:04.779 --> 00:30:27.180
But um uh where we can get tripped up is you know, we pay attention to the to the little things that are maybe going well and not look at that overarching um arc of how do we general how do we generally feel in our body when we're with them or when we have a conflict, does the conflict get repaired?
00:30:27.339 --> 00:30:28.619
I think that's huge.
00:30:28.859 --> 00:30:38.380
If if conflict is ongoing and never really gets repaired, I to me that's that's a sign that we kind of need to take a step back and go, okay, is this the relationship for me?
00:30:38.859 --> 00:30:45.500
Um I think our bodies know when we're not safe much sooner than our minds do.
00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:52.220
If our minds push it away, they're like, I don't want to, as they say, blow up our life and the impact on our children.
00:30:52.460 --> 00:31:04.859
But um that was one listening because my body was just screaming and it had been for a long time, where I had a I was away in Portland for a conference.
00:31:05.180 --> 00:31:11.819
And I the night before the conference was over and I was to fly back home, I got Thai food at this great place.
00:31:11.980 --> 00:31:18.539
And then there was too much, and so I put it in my little hotel fridge and I was gonna eat it really for breakfast the next morning before my flight.
00:31:18.619 --> 00:31:20.220
And so I heated it up in the microwave.
00:31:20.299 --> 00:31:23.180
I was like, yay, I get to have Thai food for breakfast.
00:31:23.420 --> 00:31:31.579
And then at the same moment, I was like thinking, I have to get on a plane and I have to go back and be with this person.
00:31:32.140 --> 00:31:36.460
And I was like, man, if I could import my boys here, that would be great.
00:31:36.700 --> 00:31:41.660
But my stomach was in such knots from the realization that I had to go back to that situation.
00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:43.819
I couldn't, I couldn't take one bite of the food.
00:31:43.900 --> 00:31:45.099
I just I had to throw it away.
00:31:45.180 --> 00:31:51.819
And you know, that was it was one of those clarifying moments where, like, you know, you need you need to pay attention to what's going on.
00:31:51.980 --> 00:31:54.140
Your body's been telling you for a long time.
00:31:54.539 --> 00:31:57.660
Are you ready to kind of wrestle with that?
00:31:58.140 --> 00:32:00.299
And so, yeah, paying attention.
00:32:00.460 --> 00:32:02.779
What does our body do when we're around that person?
00:32:03.019 --> 00:32:07.180
Yeah, I just started learn learning how to listen to my body.
00:32:07.339 --> 00:32:16.299
Like, I I paid attention to my body as as I went through puberty and all the different hormonal changes, and I could tell what was happening in my body.
00:32:16.539 --> 00:32:25.740
But in terms of how I felt around people, I think I was taught to just ignore it or put any discomfort to the side and not worry about it.
00:32:25.980 --> 00:32:29.099
I feel like very much I was raised like, you shouldn't think bad about people.
00:32:29.259 --> 00:32:34.700
And and so we kind of shoved down any, I think, intuition that, like, this person over here.
00:32:34.940 --> 00:32:41.980
I will say my dad had a friend he'd had for a really long time, for like decades, that gave me the ick.
00:32:42.700 --> 00:32:51.500
And um, something happened one time when um we were in a car and my dad wasn't there, and it was like, there's a reason he gave me the ick.
00:32:51.579 --> 00:32:51.740
Yeah.
00:32:52.059 --> 00:32:53.740
And so we should listen to that.
00:32:53.900 --> 00:32:54.220
Yes.
00:32:54.619 --> 00:32:57.099
Listen and don't push it away.
00:32:57.180 --> 00:32:59.660
You know, it's there, it's there to keep us safe.
00:32:59.900 --> 00:33:00.539
Yeah.
00:33:00.940 --> 00:33:04.779
Well, and and when you're starting a new relationship and you're like, oh, I have butterflies.
00:33:04.859 --> 00:33:11.660
Well, are they butterflies, or is that your body saying, take a step back and pay attention to what you have going on here?
00:33:12.059 --> 00:33:15.660
Because I mean, butterflies can be a good thing.
00:33:15.819 --> 00:33:21.900
It can be like an exciting, like lovey sort of feeling, but it could also be some warning signs.
00:33:22.220 --> 00:33:22.859
Yes.
00:33:23.099 --> 00:33:28.539
Um, you're reminding me that when I started dating after divorce, I hadn't dated since high school.
00:33:28.779 --> 00:33:30.700
Initially, I'd married my high school boyfriend.
00:33:30.779 --> 00:33:31.980
So I was 43.
00:33:32.059 --> 00:33:36.700
I was excited to get out there and just see what it was about, but I had no idea what I was doing.
00:33:36.940 --> 00:33:47.740
And after a few early dates that were like such serious hard passes, a friend of mine put me onto a dating class that the state of Utah offers for free.
00:33:47.819 --> 00:33:49.420
It was like half a day.
00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:59.019
And the the thing I really took away from that class is the research finds that you don't know if you can trust somebody until you've known them for 90 days.
00:33:59.500 --> 00:34:06.859
And so we should not see someone more than once a week for the first 90 days when we're dating.
00:34:07.819 --> 00:34:13.099
And I I will say, um we didn't necessarily intend it that way.
00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:17.659
But um, when my partner and I started dating, I was living in Logan, Utah.
00:34:17.739 --> 00:34:20.619
He was in Salt Lake City and he would be in Logan for business.
00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:26.859
But like the first couple of months, him being in Logan was when I had my youngest son with me.
00:34:26.940 --> 00:34:31.500
And I wasn't introducing him to anybody, you know, at any time, anytime soon.
00:34:31.659 --> 00:34:38.380
And so my partner and I literally had an hour and a half together each week for the first like 60 days.
00:34:38.619 --> 00:34:39.579
And that was it.
00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:45.260
And so, even like, you know, not getting overly invested with texting or phone calls or video chats.
00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:57.500
And so I think again, going into a relationship with a plan about how is this gonna roll, because you know, I think especially women were inclined to get emotionally invested really fast.
00:34:57.980 --> 00:35:04.300
Um, and only seeing somebody once a week for the first 90 days helps you slow down.
00:35:04.539 --> 00:35:04.780
Yeah.
00:35:04.860 --> 00:35:13.659
And I, you know, so many, so many women come out of abusive relationships and they end up in another abusive relationship.
00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:15.900
And it's okay.
00:35:16.059 --> 00:35:16.699
And I get it.
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:24.699
I get wanting to prove to yourself or to prove to whomever that I can be in a relationship, I can find somebody good.
00:35:25.099 --> 00:35:34.460
And I think you're probably just forcing yourself to overlook again, all of those gut feelings or whatever your body's telling you that it's not right.
00:35:34.699 --> 00:35:35.179
Yes.
00:35:35.420 --> 00:35:36.300
So, okay.
00:35:36.539 --> 00:35:39.659
Uh so we talked about getting out of a relationship.
00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:41.179
Like what happens?
00:35:41.340 --> 00:35:46.699
What are what's I think we talked about ripple effects before uh before we recorded.
00:35:46.860 --> 00:36:00.860
So what are some of the, I guess, the aftermath of what can happen, especially with we know physical abuse, what can happen to people and and those injuries, but honestly, I don't think anyone has only suffered physical violence.
00:36:01.099 --> 00:36:08.619
I think it is there's always some sort of psychological or emotional abuse happening in the background.
00:36:09.019 --> 00:36:09.980
Absolutely.
00:36:10.300 --> 00:36:24.380
And what we know from the research with um, you know, non-physical abuse, whether it's emotional, financial, sexual, the impact of that type, those types of abuse lasts way longer than physical.
00:36:24.460 --> 00:36:34.460
And and the theory is it's in large part because what's physical, you can look at your arm and say, you know, he or she grabbed me or shoved me, and I have this bruise.
00:36:34.539 --> 00:36:35.340
I know it happened.
00:36:35.500 --> 00:36:38.219
And with the others, you're like, did that really happen?
00:36:39.340 --> 00:36:43.579
My partner's saying it didn't really happen, or that I'm making, you know, a mountain out of a molehill.
00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:48.059
Um, but yeah, though the impact lasts a lot longer.
00:36:48.219 --> 00:36:55.340
And I think there's a probably with all of them, but depending on the type, it may vary.
00:36:55.500 --> 00:37:00.619
You know, you're you're building after you get out of the relationship, you're building trust with yourself over again.
00:37:00.860 --> 00:37:05.739
Because I think most um survivors do feel like, okay, what could I have done differently?
00:37:05.900 --> 00:37:07.179
What if this was my fault?
00:37:07.340 --> 00:37:15.500
And we're never responsible for any else, anybody else's behavior, but trying to figure out like, how do I not repeat this can I think get it get consuming a lot of times.
00:37:15.820 --> 00:37:24.139
And I think for people when they do start dating again, can say, well, I don't want this kind of relationship, or I don't want that kind of relationship.
00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:28.059
And instead, they're not um focusing on what they do want.
00:37:28.219 --> 00:37:33.019
And so we can kind of gravitate towards what we don't want because that's where our focus is.
00:37:33.420 --> 00:37:35.019
Oh, that makes sense.
00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:36.139
That makes sense.
00:37:36.460 --> 00:37:40.139
I was just about to say something about the psychological.
00:37:40.300 --> 00:37:41.659
It'll come to me in just a second.
00:37:42.139 --> 00:37:42.619
No worries.
00:37:42.860 --> 00:37:43.579
Maybe I hope.
00:37:44.219 --> 00:37:45.579
Or it'll come to me in a week.
00:37:45.739 --> 00:37:47.260
It's it's it's in the middle of the night.
00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:50.860
I I I attribute it to like net live hormone shifts.
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:53.820
It's like I had a thought, and then it's just poof, it's gone.
00:37:54.139 --> 00:38:00.940
So the other day I was just telling my friends, I said, Do I need to get checked for like dementia?
00:38:01.179 --> 00:38:06.940
Because I feel like I'm forgetting things a lot, or is there just too much going on right now?
00:38:07.340 --> 00:38:14.139
There is a lot going on in our world and in the broader world too, that is um, you know, stress is hard on the memory.
00:38:14.380 --> 00:38:14.860
Yes.
00:38:15.099 --> 00:38:15.659
Yes.
00:38:16.059 --> 00:38:19.579
Well, I think that's actually that's one of the lasting effects too.
00:38:19.820 --> 00:38:29.340
On people will say with strangulation and the obstruction of airflow to the brain, of course, you can end up with uh memory loss.
00:38:29.500 --> 00:38:33.739
And if you've had head trauma, you can end up with traumatic brain injury.
00:38:33.980 --> 00:38:40.219
But the I think the psychological effect can also lead to memory loss.
00:38:40.460 --> 00:39:08.940
And you have actually, when you look back, for those who are severely psychologically abused, they'll have chunks of their memory that are missing from, you know, even good times, you know, like um I think there's also growing evidence that being in a controlling relationship, just the stress that comes with that also relates to later diagnosis of autoimmune disease, especially in women.
00:39:09.179 --> 00:39:09.500
Yes.
00:39:09.659 --> 00:39:12.219
Yeah, chronic, chronic illness, chronic pain.
00:39:12.380 --> 00:39:12.780
Yeah.
00:39:12.940 --> 00:39:14.300
Yeah, for sure.
00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:17.179
Oh, this is really gonna, you know what's going to happen.
00:39:17.260 --> 00:39:18.539
I'm going to listen.
00:39:18.699 --> 00:39:25.820
I'm going to be in my car because that's usually when I'm listening, and I'm going to start shouting, This is what I'm saying.
00:39:26.380 --> 00:39:28.219
This is driving me crazy.
00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:29.260
Understood.
00:39:29.420 --> 00:39:29.579
Yeah.
00:39:29.900 --> 00:39:29.980
Okay.
00:39:30.940 --> 00:39:36.780
Well, while I try to move on and not dwell on this part, but what do we do to heal?
00:39:36.940 --> 00:39:40.539
Because we have all of these, all of these things that can happen.
00:39:40.699 --> 00:39:42.139
So what do we do to heal?
00:39:42.460 --> 00:39:43.099
Yeah.
00:39:43.579 --> 00:39:47.019
You know, I I think it looks different for different people.
00:39:47.260 --> 00:39:59.579
Um I think for a lot of them, it's it's getting out of the relationship and recognizing that um they're not responsible for somebody else's behavior.
00:39:59.739 --> 00:40:10.300
And I think, again, a lot of times women are socialized to think, you know, well, in the in the religion that I grew up in, like, girls, you know, you shouldn't wear those short skirts because you're tempting the boys.
00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:20.699
And I remember some specific sermons about like, you know, if he, if, if um, you know, he trips and slides into sin or whatever, like it's your fault.
00:40:20.780 --> 00:40:22.539
I mean, it was very explicit.
00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:31.340
And recognizing those beliefs, maybe we've been handed down and and being very specific, like, what do I believe?
00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:33.500
And is that factually true?
00:40:33.739 --> 00:40:48.539
Um, kind of in that vein, another question, especially if you know it's not something you can point to in your earlier life, like this is how I was socialized, but um, I find it super helpful in so many things.
00:40:48.860 --> 00:41:00.300
As I was healing, and I think I probably do it once a week now, when stress or anxiety comes up, especially in relationships, I ask, what am I making this mean?
00:41:01.099 --> 00:41:04.219
And then is that 100% factually true?
00:41:05.019 --> 00:41:10.860
And so if we can look back and say, what am I making it mean that I was in this controlling relationship?
00:41:11.500 --> 00:41:13.900
Does it, you know, it can mean a lot of things to somebody.
00:41:14.059 --> 00:41:17.659
It can mean like I was complicit, or well, that's the way I was raised.
00:41:17.739 --> 00:41:20.699
And so that's, you know, we gravitate towards the familiar.
00:41:21.019 --> 00:41:31.500
Um but then asking, is that factually true can really help us kind of separate where we have responsibility and where we don't.
00:41:31.900 --> 00:41:34.460
Um I think that's one way.
00:41:34.539 --> 00:41:43.019
And then making for me, the um, even though I was the primary breadwinner, I didn't have control of the money or where it was going.
00:41:43.179 --> 00:41:47.340
I still don't know what um years of credit card bills were going towards.
00:41:47.500 --> 00:41:49.900
And I'm just like, I'm I'm a professor in a business school.
00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:53.019
So it was like, oh my gosh, how did that how did I let that happen?
00:41:53.260 --> 00:42:02.460
Um, but making small decisions for myself financially afterwards was like a big, and it and even small decisions, I will say, like kind of stressed me out.
00:42:02.539 --> 00:42:03.820
And I'm like, why?
00:42:04.059 --> 00:42:05.420
I'm very lucky.
00:42:05.579 --> 00:42:08.219
My dad and bonus mom are really good with money.
00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:11.980
She used to be a partner at one of the big five accounting firms.
00:42:12.059 --> 00:42:16.460
And so I knew I could call them and say, okay, I'm thinking about this, this financial decision.
00:42:16.619 --> 00:42:18.780
Like, how do you guys think about what do you think?
00:42:18.940 --> 00:42:27.179
And I frankly, I did that for probably a year or two until I got to the point where I'd made enough small decisions that became bigger decisions.
00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:37.260
Um, and so I think really paying attention to what choices are we making and recognizing when it goes well.
00:42:37.340 --> 00:42:42.219
And even if it doesn't go really well or the way we'd hoped, does the sky fall down?
00:42:42.539 --> 00:42:43.579
Generally it doesn't.
00:42:43.739 --> 00:42:50.380
And you know, if we learn from that, like, uh, you know, I went on on a second date with that one dude and I kind of wasn't excited on the first date.
00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:53.019
And then the second date, I was like, oh, why did I do this?
00:42:53.179 --> 00:43:02.460
Well, if if we learn, if we're learning from the outcomes of our decisions and and really, you know, giving us ourselves a pat on the back when it goes well.
00:43:02.619 --> 00:43:06.300
And even if it doesn't go well, okay, what can I learn from this?
00:43:06.699 --> 00:43:08.460
And I'm a I I like to write things down.
00:43:08.539 --> 00:43:09.340
I'm kind of a dork.
00:43:09.579 --> 00:43:10.380
I love lists.
00:43:10.539 --> 00:43:13.739
And so writing down those things that went well, because we can kind of forget, right?
00:43:13.900 --> 00:43:17.340
We're like, I forgot, yeah, I forgot that this went well.
00:43:17.500 --> 00:43:22.059
Um, like a few years ago, uh, my partner and I were traveling somewhere together.
00:43:22.139 --> 00:43:27.179
And I said, Oh, I just feel like I'm so stuck and you know, I'm not really accomplishing anything.
00:43:27.340 --> 00:43:29.340
And he like drew his head back and looked at me.
00:43:29.579 --> 00:43:30.380
He's like, Are you serious?
00:43:30.539 --> 00:43:31.900
And I'm like, Yeah.
00:43:32.139 --> 00:43:36.139
And he's like, You wrote a book in the last year, you started executive coaching.
00:43:36.219 --> 00:43:36.940
Like he started listening.
00:43:37.019 --> 00:43:38.300
I was like, Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.
00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:39.739
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.
00:43:39.980 --> 00:43:53.900
And so um really um acknowledging for ourselves where we're being successful and where our choices are serving us and giving us that life that we absolutely love, I think is really important.
00:43:54.059 --> 00:44:03.739
And looking ahead, like you need time to look back and kind of sit with the pain and the frustration and the anxiety, but we can't stay there.
00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:08.699
Like if we stay in that, then we're giving up the future.
00:44:08.780 --> 00:44:13.659
And in some ways, I think we might be giving up the future to that prior relationship or to that prior partner.
00:44:13.980 --> 00:44:17.099
And once we're out, like they don't get any of that anymore.
00:44:17.900 --> 00:44:18.699
I agree.
00:44:18.940 --> 00:44:35.820
And I I think there's so one thing downplaying your Accomplishments, I think, is normal because usually when you're in these relationships, every any accomplishment that you may have is either they're taking credit for it or it's not that big of a deal.
00:44:35.980 --> 00:44:37.579
It's getting played down.
00:44:37.900 --> 00:44:45.659
And so I can I can see for but I mean those are pretty significant accomplishments that you had.
00:44:45.900 --> 00:45:03.179
But uh the other thing is I think that's very common is I I think we talked about it actually at the beginning, is taking blame for allowing the abuse to happen or getting into this relationship in the first place, or even why was I chosen?
00:45:03.340 --> 00:45:06.300
What about me did they see?
00:45:06.460 --> 00:45:07.579
Was I am I weak?
00:45:07.739 --> 00:45:10.619
Did I look like I was going to be easily manipulated?
00:45:10.780 --> 00:45:12.460
And that's why they chose me.
00:45:12.699 --> 00:45:17.099
Because I do think they choose their victims to a degree.
00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:23.739
But what I like, I had a previous guest say they pick the brightest, shiniest stars.
00:45:24.059 --> 00:45:31.099
And that is completely true, because whatever they don't have, that's what they want you for.
00:45:31.420 --> 00:45:32.139
Yes, yes.
00:45:32.380 --> 00:45:33.420
You make them look good.
00:45:33.579 --> 00:45:33.900
Yes.
00:45:34.059 --> 00:45:51.900
And I think one thing you you noted there that um I think is super important is a lot of times people in these situations because the um of the behavior that they are um subjected to and you know, all kinds of things, we tend to make ourselves smaller.
00:45:52.059 --> 00:45:59.179
I didn't realize how small I had made myself in so many ways until I was probably several years out of the relationship.
00:45:59.500 --> 00:46:09.659
And so recognizing where we've done that or where we've subjugated our needs or engaged in self-betrayal, like to keep the peace or to keep the relationship going or whatever.
00:46:09.900 --> 00:46:14.059
Um, and deciding like every single day, I'm not gonna do that anymore.
00:46:14.219 --> 00:46:15.900
I'm gonna take up space.
00:46:16.300 --> 00:46:25.659
And I'm gonna, I'm gonna see how, in a way, how how big or how good I can get because you don't have that person there who's like trying to push you down.
00:46:25.739 --> 00:46:35.019
Like I I still remember when um I got the email that I had been invited to give a TEDx talk, and I was like so excited.
00:46:35.179 --> 00:46:36.699
It this was before my divorce.
00:46:36.780 --> 00:46:41.420
And so I texted my then partner and he texted back, he was like, that's nice.
00:46:41.739 --> 00:46:45.019
I was like, excuse me, what?
00:46:45.260 --> 00:46:46.699
Like I thought it was a big deal.
00:46:47.019 --> 00:46:49.019
Did he not know what a TEDx talk is?
00:46:49.820 --> 00:47:06.539
He he definitely knew, but you know, people who engage in bad behavior in relationships, it is broadly speaking, I think, because they're not okay with themselves, they are lacking something, they need to feel powerful, they need to feel competent.
00:47:06.940 --> 00:47:12.219
And um, it's not on anybody else to help them feel that way.
00:47:12.300 --> 00:47:13.980
It's their responsibility.
00:47:14.380 --> 00:47:33.340
But when we recognize that we have been in a relationship with somebody like that who isn't comfortable um being who they are or feels like they are um not good enough, and we make ourselves smaller, like recognizing what areas of my life have I been making myself smaller.
00:47:33.579 --> 00:47:39.019
And I will say I still fight this sometimes, not so much making the smaller part, but like subjugating my needs.
00:47:39.260 --> 00:47:42.219
Didn't realize until I was like 46 that I'm a people pleaser.
00:47:42.380 --> 00:47:47.179
And so there are times with my partner when he's like, Well, you know, where do you want to go to dinner?
00:47:47.340 --> 00:47:49.980
And I'm like, Oh, I don't care, wherever you want to go.
00:47:50.139 --> 00:47:51.340
And you know, sometimes that's true.
00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:54.139
It's like, I don't care, I'm just hungry and I want to eat now, please.
00:47:54.380 --> 00:47:59.099
And then other times I kind of do, and then I'll catch myself and go, Meredith, why are you saying, why are you doing that?
00:47:59.179 --> 00:48:04.780
Like, you really want some beautifully al dente pasta for dinner, but just say it.
00:48:04.940 --> 00:48:07.420
And you know, every time I say it, the sky doesn't fall down.
00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:21.739
It may not be what he wants, but like catching ourselves um subjugating our needs or devaluing what we want, I think that's a huge step in the right direction because our needs and wants matter.
00:48:21.820 --> 00:48:23.420
Does it mean we're gonna get all of them met?
00:48:23.500 --> 00:48:24.219
Probably not.
00:48:24.380 --> 00:48:30.059
But if we're not aware of them, we certainly can't make anybody else aware of them and get support in doing that.
00:48:30.619 --> 00:48:31.019
Yeah.
00:48:31.260 --> 00:48:42.780
And actually, that makes me think of that's another sign you can look at in your partner, is if they do feel small about something or if they feel that they're not adequate in some place in their life.
00:48:42.940 --> 00:49:00.219
If, for instance, they want this job, instead of somebody who is not a horrible person is going to do what they can to then get to that job instead of tearing everybody else around them down to make themselves look bigger.
00:49:00.539 --> 00:49:00.940
Yep.
00:49:01.099 --> 00:49:01.739
Totally.
00:49:01.900 --> 00:49:02.460
Yeah.
00:49:02.780 --> 00:49:04.380
I remembered what I was gonna say.
00:49:04.619 --> 00:49:10.300
Oh, so I think part of the the I think this is what I was going to say.
00:49:10.460 --> 00:49:25.739
Uh one of the lasting psychological effects that can can uh stay stuck is wondering, because I know I did this, is I was wondering what he was thinking all the time.
00:49:25.980 --> 00:49:29.900
I would sit and think, why did he do that?
00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:31.340
Did he know he did that?
00:49:31.500 --> 00:49:41.500
When he argued with me about this happened or that it didn't happen, when I know for a fact this actually really did happen, he really did say this.
00:49:41.579 --> 00:49:43.900
And he's saying, No, you're crazy.
00:49:44.139 --> 00:49:45.340
That never happened.
00:49:45.579 --> 00:49:47.260
Like, did he know that?
00:49:47.500 --> 00:49:51.739
Or like, does he believe all the lies that he tells?
00:49:52.139 --> 00:50:03.500
And I finally realized I had to stop and just let all of that go and not figure him out and just work on learning myself instead.
00:50:03.579 --> 00:50:07.500
That was just that was something that I was very stuck in for a very long time.
00:50:08.300 --> 00:50:09.900
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:50:10.059 --> 00:50:13.739
And it sounds very familiar, just um trying to understand.
00:50:13.820 --> 00:50:17.260
I'm a psychologist at heart and somewhat by training.
00:50:17.420 --> 00:50:22.699
And so what motivates people to do what they do, I find almost endlessly fascinating.
00:50:22.940 --> 00:50:29.099
But yeah, I think survivors can definitely kind of get caught in that, like trying to figure out like why did they do that?
00:50:29.659 --> 00:50:31.579
And and they're gonna have all kinds of reasons.
00:50:31.659 --> 00:50:35.579
And I, you know, I think for some of them, they may not even recognize what they're doing it.
00:50:35.659 --> 00:50:41.820
They just know they're trying to get a certain outcome or get us to be quiet or get us to do X, Y, or Z.
00:50:42.300 --> 00:50:50.300
Um, but yeah, letting go of trying to understand their motivation because I don't know that the motivation matters that much.
00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:57.980
Like we we get to choose our behavior and and they were making choices and motivation doesn't change the behavior.
00:50:58.219 --> 00:51:01.099
Yeah, but I I agree that's hard to let go of because you want to understand.
00:51:01.179 --> 00:51:02.619
You're like, why, why, why, why?
00:51:02.699 --> 00:51:02.940
Yes.
00:51:03.099 --> 00:51:04.940
And you know, yeah, it's hard to do that.
00:51:05.099 --> 00:51:05.340
Sure.
00:51:05.579 --> 00:51:09.099
It is because it because you're a normal, you're a normal human.
00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:10.619
You don't you don't think like that.
00:51:11.099 --> 00:51:11.420
Okay.
00:51:11.659 --> 00:51:15.420
I know that I I've gone, I've taken us into like a hundred different directions.
00:51:16.059 --> 00:51:16.539
I love it.
00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:21.579
Is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't touch on or that we missed?
00:51:22.059 --> 00:51:27.500
Actually, I would love to point your listeners to a nonprofit that I was on the board of.
00:51:28.300 --> 00:51:28.539
Yes.
00:51:28.780 --> 00:51:29.179
Yes.
00:51:29.340 --> 00:51:39.900
So um it's a nonprofit called Finability that helps survivor, helps financially empower domestic abuse survivors, men, women, doesn't matter.
00:51:40.139 --> 00:51:49.179
Um they're a young nonprofit, just I think three or four years old, but they're doing tremendous work both in Oregon where they're headquartered, and then nationally.
00:51:49.340 --> 00:52:03.420
So if you go to finabilityus.org, um, if you have any listeners that are really struggling with the financial side of their situation, um, Finability offers resources that can be super helpful.
00:52:03.820 --> 00:52:09.179
And um, the founder was um is a stalking survivor.
00:52:09.340 --> 00:52:25.340
And so she's been there, she understands, and so it's it's made up of a lot of people both on the board and um who work in the organization who have been who are survivors, and so it's it's trauma informed, and I just can't say enough good things about it.
00:52:25.420 --> 00:52:31.900
The the work that Stacy the founder is doing there is just and and her team are is just tremendous.
00:52:32.539 --> 00:52:35.019
Okay, and you said that is it's national.
00:52:36.059 --> 00:52:37.019
That's also yes.
00:52:37.179 --> 00:52:42.380
So they have um they've got kind of a um a mandate, I think, from one of their funders.
00:52:42.619 --> 00:53:01.900
So they have they offer um one-on-one financial like mentoring, counseling, and that is focused on for now just people in Oregon, but they've got a lot of other resources online and otherwise that are across across the US and and maybe some people uh in other countries as well.
00:53:02.059 --> 00:53:06.139
So they're just doing to me, they're doing sacred work.
00:53:06.780 --> 00:53:07.500
That's awesome.
00:53:07.659 --> 00:53:08.780
I say this all the time.
00:53:08.940 --> 00:53:22.300
My favorite stories are the ones where survivors take their trauma and they see what was missing in in their journey and they create something to help others who are coming after them.
00:53:22.460 --> 00:53:25.659
And that's awesome because there's there's so many pieces.
00:53:25.900 --> 00:53:28.780
There's so many pieces to this where people need help.
00:53:28.940 --> 00:53:30.460
And financial is huge.
00:53:30.619 --> 00:53:32.219
That is a huge, yeah.
00:53:32.300 --> 00:53:35.980
And it's almost always present if there's any other kind of abuse going on.
00:53:36.219 --> 00:53:40.619
Financial um coercion, control abuse is usually there.
00:53:41.019 --> 00:53:42.380
Yeah, absolutely.
00:53:43.260 --> 00:53:43.579
Okay.
00:53:43.820 --> 00:53:49.420
So do you have any links or anything that you would want to leave with listeners to contact me for anything?
00:53:49.739 --> 00:53:49.900
Okay.
00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:50.460
Sure.
00:53:50.699 --> 00:53:56.460
They can find me on LinkedIn and I will share that with you so you can share it in the show notes or something along those lines.
00:53:56.699 --> 00:54:01.420
And then they can also um connect with me via partner lab.
00:54:01.579 --> 00:54:04.219
So that's at mypartnerlab.co.
00:54:04.619 --> 00:54:18.780
And partner lab focuses on helping people get clarity in their romantic relationships, um, especially whether if they're kind of stuck in that relationship limbo to help them figure out do I stay or go or you know, stay, but with certain conditions and for a period of time.
00:54:18.940 --> 00:54:21.340
Um, but it's all based on relationship science.
00:54:21.500 --> 00:54:38.780
And so um, we're super passionate about building tools that helps people have happier, healthier relationships, or recognize it's time to clot, to bring one to a close so that then they can get out, heal, and then potentially, you know, come upon another relationship that's super happy and healthy.
00:54:38.860 --> 00:54:40.139
That's what I've been able to do.
00:54:40.219 --> 00:54:42.139
And I I just want that for everybody else.
00:54:42.219 --> 00:54:49.099
I don't want anybody else to be stuck um in that indecision for the 10 or 12 years that I was.
00:54:49.500 --> 00:54:50.300
How does it work?
00:54:50.460 --> 00:54:54.539
Do you do like individual individualized classes?
00:54:54.699 --> 00:54:55.820
Do you do big webinars?
00:54:55.980 --> 00:54:56.699
Do you what do you have?
00:54:56.860 --> 00:54:57.420
How do you get this?
00:54:58.380 --> 00:55:01.739
Right now we are focused on tools and assessments.
00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:19.340
And so using um relationship science in basically online assessments that help them, like we've got one, the Clarity 360, that um gives some feedback on 12 different really important relationship factors that feed the health and satisfaction of a relationship.
00:55:19.579 --> 00:55:32.219
Our stay-go um tool, which I think will be released in the the next 24 or 48 hours, that I'm just so stoked about it because like half of our users are like, please, we want something that tells us whether we should stay or go.
00:55:32.300 --> 00:55:37.739
And we kind of steered away from it for a while, but people are are yearning for it.
00:55:37.820 --> 00:55:39.340
They're yearning for that clarity.
00:55:39.500 --> 00:55:48.940
And so um that one is based on um a massive meta-analysis that looked at all the factors that really impact relationship quality.
00:55:49.099 --> 00:55:52.219
And there are five or six, and so that's what that focuses on.
00:55:52.460 --> 00:56:03.820
And we're short, we will shortly launch a religion not religion, relationship um decision support system that does offer more of that human element.
00:56:03.980 --> 00:56:12.619
So it's assessments, but then it's also a call with me to help um the user make sense of their assessment results.
00:56:12.860 --> 00:56:15.900
And so we're just we're building things out one at a time.
00:56:15.980 --> 00:56:25.500
But right now we're starting with the those who are stuck in relationship limbo, because until you figure that piece out, you can't go on to have a better, happier, healthier relationship.
00:56:25.579 --> 00:56:31.420
And, you know, all the all my most of my research looks at how our work and non-work lives affect one another.
00:56:31.579 --> 00:56:35.099
And we know there's a massive ripple effect, whether it's good or bad.
00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:43.980
And so helping people, you know, get out of a relationship that's not serving them will also have an effect on their career, on their parenting, on other relationships.
00:56:44.059 --> 00:56:50.460
And so that's where my passion lies right now is just helping people get out of indecision.
00:56:50.780 --> 00:56:51.019
Yeah.
00:56:51.099 --> 00:56:54.619
I and I promise I'm not gonna take keep you here forever, but I have another question.
00:56:55.019 --> 00:57:01.739
So, do you have ongoing research and data analyzation that you guys are using for the relationship?
00:57:02.699 --> 00:57:06.460
Um, I I don't do research specifically in that area.
00:57:06.619 --> 00:57:14.940
Since I'm in a business school, a lot of mine focuses um on other like tangential um research.
00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:29.579
I have done some um in like focusing specifically on the psychological abuse in relationships and how that affects people at work and their creativity and job satisfaction.
00:57:29.739 --> 00:57:43.900
And we know that people who are in marital distress see a massive increase in um absenteeism, so not showing up to work or presenteism, which is like showing up to work but not working.
00:57:44.139 --> 00:57:54.219
Um, so you know, people could, I think, often think about if their relationship is in distress, like that stays at home, but it doesn't, you know, it has that ripple effect.
00:57:54.380 --> 00:57:58.139
And so um every now and then I'll dip my toe in that water.
00:57:58.219 --> 00:58:02.780
Um, but as a business school professor, most of mine is focused on things that happen in the workplace.
00:58:02.940 --> 00:58:15.420
And um I just feel fortunate to have the background and expertise to jump over to relationship science and read the articles and go, okay, three people in the world will understand what that article said.
00:58:15.500 --> 00:58:20.539
And how how can I make it um usable for everybody else on the planet?
00:58:20.699 --> 00:58:22.940
Because it shouldn't just be in the hands of academics.
00:58:23.099 --> 00:58:25.420
The stuff should be in the hands of actual humans.
00:58:25.820 --> 00:58:26.380
That's awesome.
00:58:26.460 --> 00:58:27.980
I'm so glad you're doing that.
00:58:28.300 --> 00:58:28.860
It's fun.
00:58:29.019 --> 00:58:29.739
I really enjoy it.
00:58:29.820 --> 00:58:33.420
I feel like I've I've found um kind of the synthesis of my career.
00:58:33.820 --> 00:58:34.780
Yeah, I bet.
00:58:34.860 --> 00:58:35.179
Okay.
00:58:35.659 --> 00:58:38.539
So I like I said, I promised that I wasn't going to keep you.
00:58:38.619 --> 00:58:45.340
So, do you have any lasting words of wisdom or encouragement that you would like to leave with listeners?
00:58:45.820 --> 00:58:47.820
That is a great question.
00:58:48.860 --> 00:58:59.099
I think, especially for those who are maybe right now in a relationship or just leaving a relationship that was controlling, know that it get it can get so much better.
00:58:59.260 --> 00:59:14.380
Like when I look back, if me of 2006 and seven and twist 2015, like if I'd known how great my life and my career would get after I saved myself from that relationship, I would have done it so much sooner.
00:59:14.460 --> 00:59:20.139
And so things can really, it can get better, especially once you kind of escape and free yourself from that.
00:59:20.219 --> 00:59:24.219
And you get to find out who you are, which is, you know, it's kind of a scary thing in a way.
00:59:24.380 --> 00:59:25.260
Like it's unsettling.
00:59:25.340 --> 00:59:28.219
It's like, who, yeah, who am I and what do I want?
00:59:28.539 --> 00:59:41.420
But by doing that, you get to decide what you do want and who you do want to be, rather than somebody inflicting their demands or wants on you for who they want you to be.
00:59:41.820 --> 00:59:48.300
And there is nothing more freeing than being in a relationship where you get to bring your full self to the party.
00:59:48.539 --> 00:59:53.179
And so hold out, hold out for that person that lets you bring your full self to the party.
00:59:53.340 --> 00:59:55.820
Because it just, it's, it's amazing.
00:59:56.460 --> 00:59:57.099
Perfect.
00:59:57.340 --> 00:59:58.860
Well, thank you so much, Dr.
00:59:58.940 --> 01:00:03.340
Meredith, for your work and for coming on and talking with me today.
01:00:03.579 --> 01:00:04.940
Oh, thank you so much, Ingrid.
01:00:05.099 --> 01:00:05.820
This has been a treat.
01:00:05.900 --> 01:00:07.420
I really appreciate it.
01:00:08.380 --> 01:00:10.860
Thank you again, Meredith, for joining me today.
01:00:11.019 --> 01:00:13.340
And thank you, Warriors, for listening.
01:00:13.500 --> 01:00:19.179
I've included the links Meredith was referring to as well as her one in three profile in the show notes.
01:00:19.340 --> 01:00:22.539
I will be back next week with another episode for you.
01:00:22.780 --> 01:00:24.780
Until then, stay strong.
01:00:24.940 --> 01:00:30.699
And wherever you are in your journey, always remember you are not alone.
01:00:34.139 --> 01:00:40.940
Find more information, register as a guest, or leave a review by going to the website onein3podcast.com.
01:00:41.179 --> 01:00:45.579
That's the number one three podcast.com.
01:00:45.739 --> 01:00:50.460
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01:00:50.780 --> 01:00:54.780
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01:00:55.019 --> 01:00:57.900
One and three is a point five Panoy production.
01:00:58.059 --> 01:01:00.860
Music written and performed by Tim Crow.
