March 18, 2025
Your Children See Everything: Why Leaving an Abuser is the Greatest Gift with Emma Jean Rowin (Part 2/3) I Ep. 60
When Emma Jean's young daughter offered to "act really cute" to prevent her father's rage, something profound shifted. In this raw, emotional conversation, Emma Jean reads a pivotal passage from her book, "When Things Collapse," revealing the exact moment she realized her children weren't just witnessing abuse—they were absorbing it as training for their future. This powerful discussion dismantles the myth that staying "for the kids" benefits children in abusive households. Emma Jean shares ...
When Emma Jean's young daughter offered to "act really cute" to prevent her father's rage, something profound shifted. In this raw, emotional conversation, Emma Jean reads a pivotal passage from her book, "When Things Collapse," revealing the exact moment she realized her children weren't just witnessing abuse—they were absorbing it as training for their future.
This powerful discussion dismantles the myth that staying "for the kids" benefits children in abusive households. Emma Jean shares how her daughter, now 21, demonstrates remarkable strength in relationships precisely because she witnessed her mother's courage in walking away. "That's the thing in my life I am the most proud of," Emma Jean confesses, noting that children who see their parents respect themselves learn to demand respect in their own lives.
We tackle difficult truths: the façade of an "intact family" shatters the moment abuse begins; children perceive tension regardless of parents' attempts to hide it; and perhaps most importantly—a good father simply does not abuse his children's mother. For listeners struggling with these decisions, Emma Jean offers a clarifying question: "What would you tell your daughter to do in this situation?"
The conversation acknowledges the very real dangers of leaving, with practical advice about timing, safety planning, and the emotional reality that many victims attempt to leave multiple times before making a final break. Through it all runs a thread of hope—that when parents find the courage to walk away from abuse, they give their children an invaluable gift: a model of self-respect that becomes internalized and "sealed in their fate" in the most positive way possible.
Emma Jean’s 1in3 bio: https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/emma-jean-rowin/
Link to “When Things Collapse”: https://a.co/d/8wTUZ1W
1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.
If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.
Contact 1 in 3:
- Send your emails to 1in3podcast@gmail.com
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Thank you for listening!
Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe
00:46 - Introduction with Emma Jean
01:01 - The Sad Chair: Reading from Chapter 18
05:09 - Impact of Leaving on Children
15:14 - Model of Strength for Your Children
21:42 - Myths About Staying for the Kids
28:36 - The Dangers of Leaving and Final Thoughts
WEBVTT
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Emma Jean, welcome back.
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I'm so glad to have you back on one and three.
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Again, I'm glad to be back.
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I'm excited for our conversation.
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Okay, so this is a.
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This is a big one.
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This is talking about how to get out of those relationships.
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Yes.
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So this for me, was the way out, and I'm going to begin in the middle of chapter 18.
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The name of the chapter is the sad chair, and at the beginning of the chapter I kind of discuss how I discovered that I have a sad chair, because I'm always sitting in the chair crying, and my three-year-old comes to me and tells me Mommy, why are you in your sad chair?
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Is it because Daddy always yells at you?
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And so that was the first realization of this particular day.
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And then I'm going to start reading.
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From when I pick my daughter up, I don't return home between the birthday ceremony and school pickup.
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Over the past few months I've perfected the art of wandering through Hobby Lobby and HomeGoods, sizing up the merchandise and avoiding the dark cloud of my home.
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Some of the employees even know my name now.
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The circular pacing through the stores helps me meditate through my anguish, much like my sad chair.
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Hours later I return to pick up the kids.
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School pickup always drains the life from me.
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I hate making small talk with these happily married mothers still lighthearted enough to care about their spring wreaths and vegetable gardens.
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I had that once, but it feels like another lifetime ago.
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I muddle through the conversations, pretending I can relate, spending every last bit of energy I have to ensure my kids belong in the school community.
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It's exhausting, but worth it to see the flashes of excitement on their faces when we first reunite.
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Mommy, I had a wonderful birthday, ava tells me as she skips across the school lawn.
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I breathe her in through a long hug and relish the recharge it gives me.
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Cal squeezes my leg from behind, gifting me another jolt of happy God.
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I love my kids.
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As we pull onto the highway I study Ava's expression in the rearview mirror.
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She looks genuinely happy now and I hope maybe I misread her earlier.
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Can we have Pizza World for lunch?
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Sure, baby, I say Pepperoni.
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Let me call dad and see what he wants.
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On the second pizza, alec answers in a snarl when the hell have you been?
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My gut drops.
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What do you mean?
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I was at the birthday ceremony and then I just wasted some time at Hobby Lobby instead of driving all the way home for two hours.
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I didn't marry you so you could spend all your time away from home.
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A good wife would be here taking care of the house.
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You don't work.
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I tripped over a basket of laundry that's been sitting in our bedroom for three days.
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You're worthless, dumb, fucking bitch, fucking worthless.
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He screams so loudly that my right ear feels like it's been zapped by an electrical shock.
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We are not on speakerphone, but the kids can hear every word.
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Panic travels through my veins.
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I was just calling because Ava wants pizza world for lunch and I wondered what you wanted to eat.
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My voice trembles and I know Ava picks up on it Fucking pizza.
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I have a hundred people's money on the line and you want to talk to me about pizza?
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Figure it out yourself.
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You loser, you miserable piece of shit.
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You're so stupid.
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He hangs up.
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My hands shake on the steering wheel as I round the corner to our subdivision.
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I would give anything to just drive past to take my children, buy them new wardrobes at Target and sleep at my mother's house with them, never to return to this place again.
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But my children need their father and they deserve a home that's intact, intact.
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That's what's always best for them to be intact.
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My kids can't have their immediate family obliterated like mine was Mommy.
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Ava's voice pierces the tension that stretches throughout the car.
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I have a great idea I'll go inside first and I'll act really, really cute, and then dad will be happy and he won't be mean to you and he won't yell at you.
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Her words hit me like a bomb.
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My children are not unscathed by their father's terrorizing of me not by a mile.
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They are absorbing it like a training video presented by Thomas the Tank Engine on PBS and adapting to survive.
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I am showing my children that this is normal family life and one day this behavior from a man will feel like home to my daughter.
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I can see it all in this one moment, laid out in cinematic montage the arrogant posture of the handsome, brooding classmate who will one day shift Ava's interest from cats to boys.
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The first venomous words he spits toward her that both surprise and hurt her, yet somehow stir a familiar feeling inside, one that she won't mind living with the hollow sound of the lies he will tell.
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She will tell me to cover, for him to throw me off the trail of the signs that are already recognizable to me from my own life.
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The stories she will spin to herself in order to cross the bridge to marriage and motherhood with him.
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The disappointment on her face as he storms through their home, targeting her with all his brokenness, and the shuddering of her shoulders as she cries alone in private, hiding her sorrow from their children.
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Will she have her own sad chair, like her mother?
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Stay in your seat when we pull into the garage, ava.
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I say I want to tell you something.
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Okay, mama, she replies cheerfully.
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I unstrap Cal, climb over his seat and hold him in my lap next to Ava.
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Look at me, ava.
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I say needing to speak quickly before Alec knows we're home.
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She looks at me, exaggerating her focus by leaning forward and touching her forehead to mine, so our eyes meet.
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I smile.
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Honey, this is important.
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I want to tell you that the way your dad treats me is not okay.
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The yelling and the mean names.
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That's not how dads are supposed to act towards moms.
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She squints and crinkles her nose.
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Sometimes people get angry though Mama, like in our book the Way I Feel, not like this baby.
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People can get angry though mama, like in our book, the Way I Feel, not like this baby.
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People can get angry, but it's not okay to act like dad.
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Her eyebrows lower.
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Does Jeffrey yell at grandma like dad yells at you?
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No, never Not like this.
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My mother's new husband is a good man and a goddamn saint, compared to Alec, I think.
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What about Josh and Lila?
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Does Josh do that to her.
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No, honey, no, he does not.
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Mommy needs to fix it and I'm going to fix it.
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I need you to trust me and no matter what I tell you is going to happen next, okay, okay, mama.
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She stretches her arms straight for a hug.
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I love you so much, mama.
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I love you so much too, birthday girl, let's go in and order this pizza that evening.
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After being called a stupid bitch for the third time over getting the toppings on the pizza wrong, I level an ultimatum at Alec Either go to counseling or I will call a divorce attorney.
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No, he says I'm not going to some counselor and risk them giving me some bogus diagnosis that lands me on a government list to put me in an internment camp.
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I'm not going.
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It's not going to happen.
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When he refuses, I take him at his word and I tell him to leave for the final time, and in doing so, I give my daughter the best birthday gift.
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A mother can give her daughter a backbone.
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So I read that and I didn't stop crying for like 10 pages after that.
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I actually just texted a few of my friends who I have three great friends were in this group text.
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We actually will send videos to each other once a week to update each other and all of us have been in abusive relationships at varying stages of relationships and I sent this to them because you know, they all have daughters and I was just saying I am so proud to be standing next to these amazing moms who chose their path to leave their abusers and they gave their daughters a backbone and I.
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That was so freaking incredible and I, like I said I, I actually I sent that text to.
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I don't I that picture to.
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I think there's like four different groups of friends that I sent that to because it was amazing and so Thank you.
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Yeah, I'm tearing up again I knew I wanted it.
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I folded the page over because I was like, well, she's not going to read this.
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I want to make sure.
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It's a tough chapter for me to read.
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It's my favorite chapter.
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I will tell you that.
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And I will tell you this about myself.
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I've already indicated that I kind of come from a background where I have low self-esteem and I don't give myself credit for a lot of things, but that one.
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I will give myself credit for walking out and teaching that immediate lesson to her.
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Maybe at the time I didn't understand the gravity of it, but I will tell you that now that my daughter is 21, and she has been through dating and several relationships, I have seen her be the opposite of who I was at her age and it came so naturally to her that I almost had to at times rein her in and say you have to be nice to someone, you have to, you can be discerning, but we have to, you know, we have to be reasonable.
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Because it really infused itself in her.
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She trusted me, she trusted my words, she believed me and she got on my side that day as far as the side of this isn't what we put up with.
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I never had to say it to her again, I never had to teach her those lessons as she was going through dating.
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She is just, she is armed in steel.
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I mean, she is a strong, strong girl and I am.
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That's the thing in my life.
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I am the most proud of.
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And I have a friend who's the same way, that she will look at her daughter and just see, even though her daughter is still quite young, see this strength that's just emitting out of her.
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And you know, kids model after their parents.
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Whether you like, the good, the bad, the ugly.
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And when you see especially a woman coming out of an abusive relationship and having a daughter, to see your daughter have the strength, you know that's because of you.
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You know, like you, she knows what not to put up with.
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And I have another friend who's concerned because she's sharing custody of her two children with her abuser and his home is a very, very bad environment.
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And her concern is you know, my daughter is exposed to this.
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He's remarried and his wife is not a good person either, and so her concern is obviously, like her daughter's there 50% of the time.
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So how am I supposed to make sure that my daughter is okay?
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And my reply to her was she has you.
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You know you left it, you're not in the relationship.
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Putting up.
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I said putting up with it too, it's not, it's hard to.
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I don't know what other, I don't know, I don't either.
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I said putting up with it too, it's hard to.
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I don't know what other words to use for that.
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I don't either.
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I don't either.
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But living that.
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You're not doing that anymore.
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You've removed yourself from that situation and you are, whether you like it or not.
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The mom and the dad are the when they're young.
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They're the two highest role models in these children's lives and even if one of them is bad and the other one is not bad or whatever, they still look at the two of you.
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So she's still.
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You know, she's holding her mom in high regard and she's going to see she may not recognize it now, but she's going to see like that, my mom is strong and you know I will model myself after that.
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Yeah, her mom has drawn a line in the sand and it will be.
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I think it would be harder for her to her daughter to step over that, having seen that modeled than you know.
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I just think.
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I just think what we see our mothers do is what gets programmed into our autopilot, and that's not to say that we can't break free from that, because I obviously, you know, did break that cycle.
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Um, not that my father wasn't abusive, but again, it wasn't a healthy marriage and my mother wasn't being treated the best that she could have been treated.
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Um, you know, it's funny because my, my parents divorced um, after I started dating Alec and my mom, my father actually left my mother and through that I did get to see my mom be the stronger version of herself.
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She became independent.
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She was independent financially, she lived on her own, she had healthy relationships after that and I got to see that and it did help me, it helps me model how I am in my marriage now.
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so I did get the benefit of that.
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I I think and this is my opinion personally, I think that I would have done better if my parents had divorced when I was younger, and I know that parents then believed they were doing the right thing to stay for the children.
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I don't believe that.
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I really think you have to model healthy relationships.
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So you know, I mean, my mother was a feminist and she preached feminist values in my home, but her words, her words didn't reach me.
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It was her actions and I think your friend will see that as her daughter grows up, it's those actions that will reach her daughter.
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I think so too, and I can't remember what I texted back to her but I was like, ooh, that was good, it's uh, yeah, it's very important.
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My mom, uh, I didn't see her a lot growing up.
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She worked night shift and you know there wasn't a lot of interaction with her.
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But, same after my parents divorced, I saw a woman who doesn't not that she doesn't need a man and you know whatever but like she's able to function on her own.
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And same thing function on her own.
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And same thing Ran a house, worked.
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I was in college, my sister was still in high school and she's taking care of my sister and supporting both of us and it does.
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It's a big, a big, has a big impact on the kids and I think that a lot of times that is a turning point for people who are in domestic violent relationships and marriages or not marriages.
00:14:54.534 --> 00:15:05.769
But when there are children involved, like if you can't leave for yourself, eventually you're going to look at your children and say I can't have them in this anymore.
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Yes, and that that was the case for me.
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I did not have the self-love and the self-esteem to do it for myself.
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I probably could have endured so much more and I can't even explain to you how I absorb these things, but I think I thought of myself as a strong person for staying and enduring that, oh, I can do this and I'll do this for the love of my family, but I would not let my children put up with it and in that sense my children became my self-esteem because I cared way too much for them and I thought way too much of them to let them simmer in that environment any longer.
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And then, after I got out, I learned to build my own self-esteem back.
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Sometimes that's the way it has to go right.
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Sometimes you don't just learn to love yourself and you're not a phoenix from the flames for yourself.
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Sometimes it's for your kids.
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And I think if there's anything that mothers can take away from my book or this conversation, I would want it to be that that if you can't do it for yourself and you've got all kinds of confusing programming in your head telling you to stay, do it for your children, because to me, seeing it from that perspective made it very clear.
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I was confused when I thought about what made me a good wife whether to stay and try and rescue him or not but when I looked at my children or when I thought to myself sometimes I'll say this to friends in a difficult situation what would you say to your daughter if she was in this situation?
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Would she be staying five years?
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Would she be staying three years?
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Would she be putting up with this?
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Or would you and you know they say I would.
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I would tell her to get out?
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I would tell her to get out and do that for yourself.
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Exactly Because the longer you stay in it, your, your daughters are learning this is the kind of relationship that is okay.
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It's okay to be treated this way.
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Your sons are learning this is okay to treat another human being this way.
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And you know I I'm in the process of reading why does he Do that?
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By Lundy Bancroft, and I don't know if you've read that before.
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I have seen the cover.
00:17:15.500 --> 00:17:18.900
Someone else shared it recently, I think, but no, I've never read it.
00:17:19.154 --> 00:17:20.340
I've seen it quite a bit.
00:17:20.340 --> 00:17:22.903
A lot of people have been posting that it's a great book.
00:17:22.903 --> 00:17:27.481
I was reluctant to read it because I kind of was like, well, I know why he does it.
00:17:27.481 --> 00:17:30.666
And then I also didn't.
00:17:30.666 --> 00:17:36.320
I wasn't sure if it was a very anti-man kind of a book, which it's not.
00:17:36.741 --> 00:17:49.105
The author is a man and he had support groups for abusive men, so he was studying them while trying to rehabilitate them Okay.
00:17:49.105 --> 00:17:56.808
And a lot of the abusers would say, like you know, the kids should be with me because they belong together.
00:17:56.808 --> 00:17:58.414
Look at what she's doing.
00:17:58.414 --> 00:17:59.858
She's ruining our family.
00:17:59.858 --> 00:18:02.546
We were a cohesive family before.
00:18:03.167 --> 00:18:12.148
But a good point that the author makes is that once the abuser started abusing that intact family, that ideal is gone.
00:18:12.148 --> 00:18:13.057
They ruined it.
00:18:13.057 --> 00:18:14.019
It's already gone.
00:18:14.019 --> 00:18:14.761
That's right.
00:18:14.761 --> 00:18:18.940
So by staying in the relationship you're not keeping an intact family.
00:18:18.940 --> 00:18:19.621
That family's gone.
00:18:19.621 --> 00:18:24.538
And he's already robbed the children of what a father is supposed to be.
00:18:24.538 --> 00:18:25.381
He's already not.
00:18:25.381 --> 00:18:26.624
That's right.
00:18:26.624 --> 00:18:27.946
That's a really good point.
00:18:27.946 --> 00:18:30.797
It really is, and that's how people should think of it Exactly.
00:18:30.797 --> 00:18:39.303
And then another thing is, when it comes into custody, a lot of women think well, you know, I don't want to take my children away from their father.
00:18:39.303 --> 00:18:40.804
He's good to them.
00:18:40.804 --> 00:18:43.006
He's, you know, he's only mean to me.
00:18:43.006 --> 00:18:44.166
He's not mean to them.
00:18:44.166 --> 00:18:45.126
He's a good father.
00:18:45.126 --> 00:18:52.032
And another point he makes is you know, a good father does not abuse the mother of his children.
00:18:52.032 --> 00:18:53.094
It's true.
00:18:53.713 --> 00:18:54.815
It's true, you don't.
00:18:54.815 --> 00:19:02.160
If once you are abusive, you're no longer, you don't fall in the category of a healthy nuclear family, right?
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.924
My ex husband still sends me I mean, we've been apart since 2010.
00:19:07.924 --> 00:19:13.228
And I still, 15 years later, get emails, nasty grams, from him.
00:19:13.228 --> 00:19:22.223
And one of the ones I got was around the time that Barbie, the Barbie movie came out and the subject line was understanding Barbie.
00:19:22.223 --> 00:19:27.126
And then it said something along the lines of nuclear families generate love.
00:19:27.126 --> 00:19:33.817
The idea that these abusive partners consider themselves to be in the category of a nuclear family.
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You're not in a nuclear family anymore.
00:19:36.275 --> 00:19:40.646
Or them saying, on the same note, saying to women we're soulmates.
00:19:40.646 --> 00:19:46.826
You don't qualify as a soulmate If you're an abusive man, you don't get to have a soulmate.
00:19:46.826 --> 00:19:51.115
You aren't anyone's soulmate, you're disqualified, that's that.
00:19:51.115 --> 00:19:51.516
And so you don't get to have a soulmate.
00:19:51.516 --> 00:19:52.269
You aren't anyone's soulmate, you're disqualified, that's that.
00:19:52.269 --> 00:19:58.371
And so you don't get to speak in those terms to save yourself or to buy yourself more time.
00:19:59.413 --> 00:20:01.903
Right, and there is that belief still.
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