Court, Protective Orders & Keeping Kids Safe with Attorney, Meg Groff I Ep. 115

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Hi Warriors, welcome to One and Three. I'm your host, Ingrid. Today I'm joined by attorney Meg Groff, who shares how an early awareness of injustice led her to a legal career dedicated to helping victims of domestic violence and protecting vulnerable children. We talk about family court challenges, the importance of protective orders, the impact of Caden's law, and how education of judges and attorneys is critical to survivor safety. Here's Meg. Hi, Meg. Welcome to One and Three, and thank you so much for joining me. Oh, I'm very happy to be here. Okay, so we have a book and a lot of information to go over, but before we get to that, could you share some of your background so listeners can get to know you?

Lily’s Escape And A New Path

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Okay, um, we'll start from now. I live in a small town in Bucks County, Pennsylvania with my husband and our little dog who's good and bad. And uh have a daughter who's a professor at uh St. Louis University in uh Missouri, uh, who teaches philosophy and political science. Um and uh and I'm 83 years old, which I don't know how that happened. Um uh and um but my early life, uh I think that I I began in the direction that I'm in and have stayed in all these years, I think at about seven years old, because I overheard my mother. Uh she used to teach a course on anti-Semitism, and I heard her say that you must always uh speak out in the face of injustice. You must stand up and speak out in the face of injustice. And at the time I thought my mother was saying it, I thought it was the law, and I thought you really had to do this. And in order to do it, it struck me that you had to sort of recognize injustice when you saw it. You know, you and to do that, you had to be, you know, keep your eyes open, you had to be aware of it. Um so that because it's you know, it's I think I remembered somebody being mist mistreated on the playground, and I thought, gee, you know, I hadn't really taken that, hadn't really considered that strongly enough. So I became uh very diligent about looking for injustice in in the 50s when I was growing up, 40s and 50s, there was a lot of it, as there still is. Um and I think that that really always guided my life to be feeling like you really have to see injustice and do something, whatever you can do about it. And um so I although I had not intended to be a lawyer, um I uh was sick of school, I cut school so many, so many classes, it was a miracle I graduated. And um I uh married right after graduating. And my husband and I were hippies at the time. It was the 60s, early 60s. We were early hippies, and um, you know, we just tried to live the what we call the good life without electricity and running water and making your own food and doing all those kinds of things, and and of course, protesting for peace and for uh civil rights and things like that. Um and we were happy about it, but we were very poor. Um my husband's very talented uh craftsman, carpenter, uh, but uh he would only do things that he thought were he would only make things that were either beautiful or functional, and that was it, so it didn't matter. So he turned down a lot of jobs, and he was a perfectionist, so when he would quote how much he would be paid, and then he'd be working twice as long. And I was completely incompetent at all the jobs that I tried to do, all the low-paying jobs, just totally totally incompetent. And um, that culminated with me having a job in a sock factory in which my shirt got caught uh in one of the machines. I've written a whole story about this, but I mentioned just mention it in my book, uh, not if I can help it. Um, and it caused uh the machine to I I finally was able to get loose from the machine. It was the middle of the night. I was on this like night shift, I was the only person there, ran out without a shirt, and um and all the socks were making, all the other machines were making socks. It was a catastrophe. And uh my mother happened to call me and sort of fuss uh fuss at me about going to college, um, which she often did, but uh on this particular occasion she made the comment, you know, if you don't do this, if you don't go to college, you'll be working in sock factories all your life. And I thought, I'm not gonna be able to work in a sock factory again, so that's off. So I went to college very slowly, um, because my daughter got diabetes. Uh, we had a daughter shortly after, you know, shortly after we got married, and uh when she was five, she got diabetes, and so it was difficult um between being poor and and her being sick to uh to go to you know to go to school full time. I was just taking one one or two courses a semester um until I anyway. I finally finished. By the time I finished, I was 37, but I had become very interested in psychology. I really liked those courses, and I thought that I would, if I was able, I would pursue that. Um but then one night, uh in the middle of the night, a victim of the abuse, a battered woman, who I call her Lily in the book, uh banged on our door and she had fled. She was hiding in a house, um, and her abuser had found her, grabbed their nursing the baby who was nursing, a little tiny baby, and beaten her up badly. And she was just running for help and uh middle of the night. Uh, it was very traumatic. And I called, I found out the police weren't in any way helpful. Um, I called a lawyer the next day and found out, you know, custody case, you know, as far as the custody and and uh domestic violence was, you know, she might get some help, but it was kind of after the fact and um it and very expensive. Everything about it just seemed so unjust that I decided that I had to uh do something about it. And so the way it seemed to me was to become a lawyer that somebody like Lily could could have on their side. And so that's what I did. And uh and so I was in the active practice for about 40 years. I I I uh you know, I was 37. At first I thought I was too old. And I do tell this story in the book that um I was telling my mother that I just thought uh, you know, even though I wanted to do it, I just thought I was too old to actually become a lawyer. And because I was 37, it takes three years to go to law school. And she said, Yeah, it's true. Uh, you know, you will be 40, uh, but you're gonna be 40 one way or the other. You might as well be a lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

That's one of my favorite stories in that book.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Yes. You know, it was actually, I've been help able to help so many women with that story because so many of my clients would say that. It was like too late to do this, and I would tell them that. And that it's, you know. And uh, and so many of my clients went on to really do very successful things and things that they had never dreamed of or always dreamed of because of that. Yeah, my mother was a very wise person.

Legal Aid And Making Help Free

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Yeah, that's that's some really good advice, and I'm holding on to that one to use whenever I can. I love that one. So you briefly referenced it, but you did write a book. And for anyone who's watching, I'm holding it up right now, but it's called Not Not If I Can Help It. And it's a collection of your story, obviously, not all of it, not even close to all of it. You you mentioned that a few times throughout the book that if you wrote down everything, it would like line walls uh with information. But it's you include a lot of different stories, short stories of victims or clients that you have helped throughout your career, specifically when you worked with legal aid. So I guess first, what made you choose to go to legal aid instead of doing your own practice? And you also you already referenced uh the experience of when your neighbor ran to your house and that pushed you into law. Is that what also pushed you into wanting to focus a lot on women and children or domestic violence victims?

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yes, I I really did want to be involved with that topic because you know that was what motivated me to go in. And also I uh my interest in psychology had to do with people, and family law has to do with people. You know, it's really the most the one for me that most involves people and helping people is the area of family law. So um so I wanted to do that, and I knew about legal aid, and legal aid helped people for free, and I wanted to be able to do that. I didn't really have the money to start up my own practice. Um and uh so I wanted to be a legal aid attorney. I that was my goal, and I was able to accomplish that. Um and um and I also was interested in poverty because Lily was poor. That was part of the problem in terms of getting a lawyer. And so the the idea of representing people without any charge was very appealing to me. I mean, that's what I wanted to do. I didn't like the idea of charging people for helping them. And so legal aid gave me that opportunity. I stayed at legal aid for 12 years. It was really 12 years in Bucks County. I was one year before that in a different county, um, and until I opened my own practice. And when I opened my own practice, I basically took all my clients with me. And I thought, you know, it is family law, I can't do divorce and other things, and so I thought I would do 50% paying clients and 50% non-paying clients. I think the percentage went up a little bit on the non-paying part, but I was always able, and I sort of had a sliding scale, I was always able to represent people who couldn't afford an attorney. And um and I set up programs in our county to enable all victims of domestic violence to get free representation when they were going for protection from abuse. That was one of the things that I a program that I set up in Bucks County that's still functioning today. I did that many years ago. Either side can get a free lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

That's such an important piece because a lot of victims of domestic violence have some, even if they are married to someone that is well off, a lot of times when there's that separation, if they've been a stay-at-home parent, they don't have their own finances to draw upon. And you there were a few cases that you mentioned also in the book that was that situation.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

You know, at least at least initially, uh, absolutely, because that's part of being uh part of abuse almost all the time is financial control as all the other kinds of controls. So, yes. And it you know, you're fleeing, you know. I mean, it's it's a very difficult situation, and uh certainly you don't have resources at that point. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

There are so many points that I want to talk about in the book, but one question I did have is did you sort of learn as you went with learning all the intricacies of domestic violence? Because there's so much, and I think I can speak for a lot of other survivors and victims out there that there's quite a few individuals in the legal system, law enforcement, attorneys, judges who don't get it. So, how did you become so well-versed?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Absolutely. Um I don't know. I just saw it. I mean, you know, I just saw it. I mean, I've always been a very intuitive person. I've always been able to see, um, you know, I think because of my years of looking to be sure that I saw, you know, that if there was an injustice, I think that that is what made me be very attuned to it. And um, it just is very clear to me, and uh, you're absolutely right, about the whole system and about and about lawyers. Lawyers are a problem as well. They really don't, most of them do not understand anything about the dynamics of domestic violence. And um, so I, you know, one of the things that I did in my career was train lawyers. Um, I set up this program for everybody to get free legal representation in court. And to do that, I also trained lawyers on how to represent plaintiffs in protection from these cases, and I was always in court all the time to be to run in. And if there was a problem, I I got the our local women's shelter to provide court accompaniment for the women, so that if I was not in the room and there was a lawyer uh representing them and and he or she was doing something wrong, they'd come run and get me, and I'd come running in to uh solve the problem. Um so uh yeah, and I had and you have to educate judges. That was one of my one of my motives was to educate. And um I think my interest in psychology was very helpful to me. I mean, first of all, that was probably one of the reasons that I was able to understand domestic violence, but also I was able to sort of see with judges the kind of person that they were and what would appear how I could get through to them. And uh, yeah, I would use opening statements and closing arguments as sort of a way to lecture and educate them. And uh it worked. You know, I I was a very determined person, I was always well prepared, I always knew the law better than anyone else. I always knew what I was doing better than anyone else, so I kind of scared judges, which I recommend when I train lawyers that you know that lawyers are so afraid of judges, but I think it should be the other way around. I was always willing to appeal if I lost, which made me hardly ever lose, because judges don't like to be appealed. And um so uh, you know, that's that's I hope that's an answer to your question.

Temporary Orders And Fast Protection

SPEAKER_01 15:27

It is, it is lost a bit. And you were I I just I loved the visual that was in my mind of this this hippie walking into a courtroom and doing things that were not done traditionally and sort of rocking the boat. Uh, you were you I think you were the first person in the county, right, that was able to successfully get a temporary protection order.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

That was what I was told when I came there. You know, I originally, in order to be a legal aid attorney, at the time legal aids were being closed down everywhere. The fund Ronald Reagan had been elected, he hated legal aid, and um they were losing their funding. 25% of their funding was cut by Congress, and so they weren't hiring. But I found out about this national um grant program where the two people from each state were given a grant to work at a legal aid place and paid for by the through the grant. And so I applied for that and got that in Pennsylvania. So, and I was initially sent to a little a little place in the middle of the state, far from where I was living with my husband. My daughter at that point was already in college. She went uh she went to college very early. Um and uh when I got there in this small town, they did things a certain way, and I thought that's the way things were done. It was very fortunate. I was very unhappy about being sent there because I was had to only commute back to my husband like every other weekend and stuff. But I learned a great deal by being there because of their system was so much better than the one that they had in Bucks County. And there, when people filed for protection, they went to court right away uh for uh to get a temporary order. And uh and that's so crucial because the time that you leave is a very dangerous time. And the time that the abuser knows that you are actually telling and that you are seeking help and that you might escape, it's a very, very dangerous time. You need protection right away. And I was accustomed to getting it. Um I was there for about eight months until I was able to transfer back to Bucks County and get to Bucks County's legal aid, where my husband was living and working. Um, and they they didn't do temporaries. And I was like, what? And it was like, well, the judge and the president judge, the presiding judge didn't like them, didn't think it was fair for be you know for the men to be thrown out of their homes and um on such short notice. And uh I was told that nope, not only legal aid didn't do it, but nobody did it. And I just was like, that has to be done. So I did it. And um, and I was very heartened, surprised and heartened by the fact that as soon as I did it, everybody started doing it, you know. And they even set up a whole thing for there to be a judge who would hear them. Everything moved very quickly when I just broke through that dam. It was just like a prohibition that didn't have to be there, and and I didn't accept it, and that was the end of it.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah. And I think that's that's part of what I a lot of people come across when they start having to interact with family law is a lot of people just do things the way they have always been done. And like what you were referencing, that lawyers are afraid of judges, so they prefer to actually you mentioned this in the book too. I I can't remember how many cases or incidents you that you mentioned, but where a lawyer didn't want to do something because they didn't want the judge to get mad at them. And I think that's something that a lot of people uh that I I know personally and a lot of uh other individuals that I've spoken with, that they encounter that kind of a situation where they feel that their lawyer is not truly advocating for them because of whatever they may have going on.

Custody Fights And Alienation Claims

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Well, you know, lawyers have this disadvantage most of the time, I've noted, because they are they're willing to argue both sides of a of a question. So they'll come in one day. If you're coming in one day representing a victim, and the next day you're representing an abuser, and you're using all the kinds of attacks that that defense attorneys use for their abuser. And then the next day you come in saying trying to say the opposite, you're gonna have no credibility. And so, yeah, maybe a judge will get mad at you when you say something strongly because they know that you don't believe it, particularly. But I never did that. There was no way. And when I went into private practice, abusers called constantly because I had this reputation in the county. I was the protection from abuse lawyer, you know, and I always won. And so they wanted me to represent them, offered me all kinds of money. I would never, ever, ever do it. Because when I went into court and said something, judges knew I believed it. And so if I said it forcefully, it was because I believed it forcefully. And if they didn't rule in my favor, they knew I would appeal. And it didn't matter if my clients had money for an appeal, because they knew that I, you know, I was a zealot. They knew that, and they knew that I knew um what I was talking about. And so uh, you know, I I worked on the fact that they were intimidated, and I also think they respected me. And um plus I spent a lot of time educating them. Um, I would educate them in the thing in in motions and in in uh petitions, and I I I took every opportunity to to educate them and explain what it was. You know, I had this one, there was one judge who loved to say that children are resilient. And because he believed that in custody cases, he was very uh unfazed by all kinds of abusive behavior towards children, uh, you know, all kinds of emotional, um psychological abuse. It was loud, children are resilient. And that was like a pet belief of his, it was ingrained. And um one day I had this case and I knew that he was going to do that. And so in my closing uh argument, I started out by saying we like to believe that children are resilient. And that was the courthouse, the courtroom was filled with people and was sort of a gasp because I was saying this. They could see that I was starting to challenge this core belief that and I said, you know, but I said that our our prisons and our mental hospitals and our um our rehabs are filled to overflowing with people who were not resilient enough as children, not resilient as much. As we like to believe they should be. And then I went on to talk about how anyway, the everyone was aghast. And initially, when I first said it, he kind of was, you know, looked at me kind of. But at the end, uh he kind of, you know, he he accepted it in this way. He said, Ms. Graf is right. Children are resilient, but not that resilient. You know, so he he he moved it there and he never said that again. He never used that phrase again in all the years afterwards. So it was like, that's how, you know, that's what I did. And I educated him and I stood up to him. And uh, but I I, you know, I didn't, I think I was respectful in the sense that I was trying to teach him something that he needed to learn.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah, and I actually, uh, since you brought it up, because children is one of the topics I wanted to talk about, you referenced a few stories, and then at the end in the epilogue, you shared some statistics about parental alienation and parental alienation syndrome, which I actually did not realize that Gardner had all of those other beliefs in mind that you shared. It was really appalling. But the statistics for even to today in 2026, the statistics of protective parents being referred to as alienating parents when they are trying to advocate for their children, even when the child themselves is being abused, or even especially so when the children themselves are being abused physically, sexually, the statistics of custody being given to the abuser are horrendous.

Training Gaps And Who Gets Believed

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when I was practicing initially, like not if I can help it, this was written from the period of time of the early years of my time at legal aid. I mean, my I always thought that I would, and maybe I still will, uh, write a book then about when I went into private practice and about those cases. I had so many cases. And I wrote the book because I wanted to um I wanted to educate people about what happens. But at the time that uh I was practicing for much of it in the 80s and 90s, we didn't have that much of a problem with it because there was still a belief, especially in the 80s, that women were the people who should be in the home taking care of children, and that men, you know, were out doing the more important things. And so uh it wasn't quite as hard to keep the custody, you know, it wasn't quite as hard. But on the other hand, of course, men are given great credit when they want custody because judges assume, oh, this man wants custody, what a loving person he is, which, you know, in terms of abuse is not the case. You know, it's what a controlling person he is. Um, but we didn't have as much trouble with it. But now, I mean, it's rampant. And so I have been working now, having, you know, I sort of retired from active court work in during at the the pandemic kind of set made that happen for me. Um, and now I've been working on trying to advocating for Cadence Law, which um was passed in Pennsylvania. And I did help a little bit with the with the the um drafting of that law. Um I got a provision added about um having uh supervised visitation, having an affidavit of accountability. Um but um that uh that problem is just uh across the country, and um and it it it needs to be challenged in the sense that we first of all judges are given um these uh you know um factors to to consider in custody, to have some leeway. But they they have incredible discretion, but factors were put into place gradually over time. When I first started practicing, they didn't have that in the laws, um, to give them some guidance on how to make decisions, right? And every state has different different laws and different guid different factors, but one of the factors that is very prevalent, uh well, I I think all the states have it, is how well do the people get together, how well do the parents cooperate with each other? How you know how cooperative, and we look to see. And uh and abuse victims are are not cooperative, they're not willing to be on the same page as the abuser. They know that that his motivation is not good, and and the things that he wants to do are not good, and so they're not on the same page, and they do try to express the problems, and so they are seen as people who are causing problems. The abuser, of course, he always wants to communicate, he always wants to be in contact, he always wants to be having, you know, this supposed cooperation. Uh, and so the thing about Caden's Law, and Caden's Law was named after a child from Bucks County, Pennsylvania, from my from my place. Uh, she was uh seven years old when she was bludgeoned to death by her father, who was a known um violent, mean person. And there had been a whole hearing talking about his ways. Um, but the judge had allowed unsupervised uh partial custody. He had her every other weekend, and um and he killed her on one of those occasions, uh, which has happened uh almost to approximately a thousand children in this one study of about 14 years or 15 years. Um and so Cadence Law was named after her. Um it's passed in 10 states, and it's not always called Cadence Law because children are being murdered in every state. So sometimes it has a different name. But it what what it asks for, what it what it requires what it involves is that the priority of the child's safety, that the safety of the child is the priority, that that is a weighted factor, that no other factor is more important, and that every factor should be looked at through those lens of the safety of the child. And recognizing that this thing about how the parents get along is not really the issue. If the parents can't get along, you obviously have to, to some extent, li you know, limit how much they can't have 50-50 custody if they can't get along. It should be a given. Uh, but you have to look at why aren't they getting along? You know, it's like that's not really the issue, is the child's safety. And you have to have judges who are educated. So Cadence Law says that judges should be educated, um, and that people who are giving opinions, child custody evaluators, experts who come in to testify, the psychologists, that they should have an evidence-based understanding of domestic violence and its and its import and its impact, and um and that otherwise they shouldn't be allowed to be testifying or be giving their opinions. And then, of course, there's something about reunification programs. You know, there's this idea that if a child is saying that he's a he or she is afraid of the parent expressing why, it's like, well, the child is just not getting along correctly, and we have to have rehabilitation in some form. I had one case like that where the child was forced to go into counseling with someone, it was just a question of how are we going to get this child to stop being so difficult and to just recognize that the father wants custody and he has rights. It's like this very archaic idea that parents are the owners of children and they have this right, and the child has no autonomy. You know, the child, what what's happening to the child is not primary. And we allow so many things to happen to children. You know, I mean, you can get protection orders, hopefully, if judges believe you that you've been hit. But children being hit, that won't get them a protection order in our country. You're allowed to hit children, you know, you're allowed to discipline them in so many really inhumane ways. So the whole, you know, the whole system is so bad. But um, that's what I've been working on now to try and offset the idea of parental alienation.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Yes. And one thing that I just I find so incredible to me is one of my previous guests is someone who advocated for the state of Tennessee to mandate domestic violence training in beauty professionals, because so many people go to beauty professionals and they talk about what's happening, or they don't talk about what's happening, but that beauty professional can recognize perhaps signs of actual physical abuse or even some sort of manipulation, emotional or psychological coercion, all of those things. And it blows my mind that that can be a mandate for beauty professionals. But then for the professionals who are actually having an impact on the final decision of what happens in these domestic violence cases, don't have to have that intensive domestic violence training.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Right. And you know, although I said that Pennsylvania passed um cadence law, um cadence law and that has been passed in 10 states, it has not always been passed in its full in its fullness. You know, it has these four uh aspects to it. And in Pennsylvania, our constitution says that the that um that the legislature can't control the judiciary, and therefore the the the part that says the judges need training, we could not get into the law. So judges don't need training in Pennsylvania, which is crazy. Because we're not allowed to make them get training, and you know, and they don't think they need it usually.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

So yeah, that's uh I'm a nurse practitioner and I've been licensed in different states, and some states mandate a domestic violence portion of our continuing education to be dedicated to domestic violence, but not all states do that either. It just is a very simple thing to do. It's very frustrating that it can't be a mandate.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Yeah, yeah. It's it's and it's fought against all the time. I know that there's a counterfight going on from men's groups for 50-50 being like a default position on custody. Uh, it's as if uh, you know, it's like that would only be if you're talking about property, that something is only fair if it's 50-50. We're talking about children, human lives, individuals, and we're saying it's only fair, you know. I really, you know, I accept the idea, which is which is kind of ingrained in judges' minds, that it is uh that it is good for children to have ongoing consistent contact with both parents, but as I have said a hundred times, only if those parents are both loving parents whose whose in who are whose primary interest is them. Then it may, of course it makes sense. But if one of them is an abuser, if one of them is a horrible person who is going to make that child feel terrible for the rest of their lives, probably, then no, who would say that that's important for them to have ongoing consistent contact with a person like that? So we have to stop looking at parents and start looking at who are these people and what are they doing to their children.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yes. And one thing I say it and I saw that you put it in the book as well is when you have healthy parents, they're probably not going to be in the family court system because they don't need to be. They're going to be amicable, they're going to do what's best for the children.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

I know you referenced one story, and I know there's multiple stories, but where a man killed his, I don't remember if they were officially divorced yet or not, but the mother of his his children, and then from prison, was trying to petition for his parental rights. And you said that was something that frequently happened where the family of the murdered victim would have to take the children to the prison to have the court-appointed rights of parental contact.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Yes, there are many states where that is uh perfectly allowed, and it was allowed in Pennsylvania at the time. I worked on that, and now you know the best we could do was to get uh to get the law say that uh that would not be allowed unless the children really wanted it. So they had that, you know, unless. But um, but there are and there is a couple states that actually specifically say no, you can't if you're in jail for killing, but most of them don't. And then most of them, yeah, it's a possibility that that can happen because of this idea. Well, he's still he he only killed the mother, he didn't kill the children.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Right. There's yes, that philosophy too of the abuse was only toward the mother, not the children. But the children could have been witnessing it, but it was still experiencing it, yes.

How Survivors Are Judged In Court

SPEAKER_00 37:18

And nobody, I mean, as far as outward abuse to the children, I mean I think the statistics of that in terms of abusers who abuse their spouses or their partners, um, I think the statistics are pretty high on how many of them abuse their children, but that's only talking about physical abuse. You know, the emotional abuse and psychological abuse of living in a household where your mother is being abused is 100%, you know.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Yeah, and then the idea of coercion is just now being recognized in in different specific states. Is that, do you know if that's recognized for coercion toward toward the children as well, or is that just an adult to adults idea?

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Right. I, you know, there's only a few states that actually have in the statute something that suggests an understanding of coercive control. Um, and um, I think that's probably an individual basis. I don't ever think that it says, you know, um that just sort of like this is a practice. So I guess I can't really answer that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Yeah, I wasn't sure. I meant to look that up, and I I forgot to look that up. Well, so understanding that there is this sort of delicate dance that survivors have to do when they are trying to advocate for their children without becoming uh the person who seems to be the aggressor or the controlling individual. Do you have any suggestions of what they should do or what they can do to duel? I mean, that's it's really difficult to do. How do you advocate without advocating too much?

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Yeah, you know, I mean, whenever we would hear, uh, you know, in recent years, whenever I would hear, I'm looking for a whenever I would hear that uh uh that there was an accusation that the child was being sexually abused, you know, it was a cause of panic because we knew how dangerous that was for the protective parent to be saying that, because judges hate that. They do not, you know, the I and first of all, there's a complete misunderstanding about sexual abuse of children by abusers, because there's a there's a belief that only pedophiles would sexually uh abuse a child. And that's not true. The sexual abuse of a child is a is a tactic. You don't have to be a pedophile to do it. It's just one form of abuse that can be used, and it's a good one because it often doesn't show, and because it's so harmful. And um, so they're like, oh, this person's never shown signs of being a pedophile. And that's not the point. So that has to be it has to be argued, it has to be understood that you don't have to be a pedophile to sexually abuse a child. Um, but yeah, that would cause a great deal of panic because judges do not want to believe it. They just don't want to believe it. So you're trying to make a judge believe something that they do not want to believe. So it's a tremendous fight and uh and a very, very difficult one. But um, you know, it has to be done. And I say as far as preparing, as far as preparing your client for it, I mean, there's some horrible things that you have to end up sort of arguing to the I mean, you have to be, they have to be sweet, they have to be demure, they have to cry, they have to, they can never yell, they have to be um, you know, they have to be seen as helpless. You know, there's all kinds of things that you don't really want to be in real life that judges want to see in a in a in an abused person. Um, and um so there's a lot of that kind of just counseling about how to behave in court so that um so that a judge will not, you know, you will stay within their myth so that we can prove this other thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Right, which is so difficult, especially when somebody is fresh out of a the relationship and they're still very victimized to keep some semblance of control over their own emotions while sitting in the same room as the abuser, who a lot of times has zero accountability or any reason to believe they're going to be held liable for any of their actions. So they're usually seen as the very calm, collective person while the victim is the unstable one.

Protective Orders Explained Clearly

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Yeah, they always come across so well. They are just so kind and soft spoken and they're just lovely in court, you know, and she often is somewhat of a mess. Yeah. And that's why I I felt that my job was so much educating judges to point out, see how he's looking now. This is not how he looked when he did this. This is not, you know, um, you know, you have it's just a it's an education thing, which I think is very hard for the woman to do. You you know, you really need to have somebody else, the lawyer, your expert, somebody pointing out, um, you know, pointing out what's happening and trying to educate. It's very, it's difficult for a woman to do. It's very difficult. There's so many um, so many myths about about it, there's such a misogynistic uh world, you know. So it's a very difficult thing. Um that's what I felt like psychology was very important because I kind of see what the judge is thinking and figure out a way to to uh mis unabuse him of that of that way of thinking. But it's very difficult for for the individual by themselves.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Another time I kind of want to go back to the protective order uh conversation. And I know the terminology may vary a little bit state to state as far as what is included in a protective order versus restraining order, but could you just explain? I again I know it's it's maybe varying differently state to state, but just sort of in general, so people can understand what they're asking for if they do ask for any type of protection or a restraining order.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Yeah, you know, every state is different. So in some states, what you have to prove in order to get a protection order is very limited. It has to be a certain kind of physical abuse or threat. Some of them are very limited to that, physical abuse or threat where you are in imminent danger of bodily injury. And some places um will include stalking, and some places will include um other kinds of uh other kinds of abusive behavior, including some coercive control behavior. So depending on the state that you're in, you you may be very much abused where you could get an order in one state, but in your state, you know, he hasn't physically abused you sufficiently uh for for it to get you in order. So there's that. There's how many, what are the factors for getting protection that the state recognizes? And those are things that every people, advocates in every state should be pushing to get, you know, to have a wider understanding of domestic violence. And then there are the remedies, and those vary from state to state. In some states, you can get a great deal of remedies, and in other states you cannot. You can get a protection order, maybe the person stays away from you, maybe you can get them kicked out of the house. Um, and in other places you can get all kinds of remedies that involve, you know, Pennsylvania just added uh protection for pets. That was always a big thing of mine, and it was never in the in the law. And um, you know, abusers hurt pets, kill pets, as and and a lot of times people won't leave because of their pets. Or their children are traumatized by leave having to leave the pet. Um, and so there's things like that. S some states have all kinds of remedies that really enable someone to to to be free, and others are just kind of really protecting you from hopefully. from being killed or seriously injured, hopefully. Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

And and then there's the difference between the temporary and the permanent. Can you just explain that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah. Well when you first file in pretty much I'm sure every state, there is the ability to get a temporary order, which means that you file and you go into court right away all by yourself without the other side, ex they call it ex parte, to argue that you need a temporary protection order to stay in place until the hearing because of the danger that you have alleged in your petition. And so if you get that order, then you're already protected. Now when you get to the hearing, you could, you know, that that could change if you but unlikely I think once you get the temporary, you usually get it. So if you don't get it, people that don't get temporaries often will drop their petition because they don't want the abuser to know that they tried to do this because they sort of like they've already failed in a way. If the judge doesn't consider it at that point, in my opinion. So um so that's what a temporary is and I I think they're absolutely crucial because it's it is a dangerous time to leave and you need protection right away. And so and there's even emergency petitions with emergency protection in some places where if it's like the weekend you can get it from a from your like local magistrate or district court or whatever they call it in that state to hold in place until Monday in which time you can get the temporary order and then the hearing. Usually hearings are held fairly quickly. Pennsylvania's within 10 days it that's a typical time. And of course then there's also the question of how long does a lore an order last? In Pennsylvania it's up to three years. And we had to fight that I fought that all through my career. First it was one year then we managed to get 18 months and then we got and I had a case where the guy waited until what he thought was a day after it was in the one year one but he miscalculated so we got him but it was like you know how ridiculous is it to say in an order that he can't abuse you until this date you know like in in New Jersey you can get a lifetime order. There's some places like that and to me it seems like that's what you should be getting. Somebody should not be allowed to abuse you from now on not until third you know not until March 27th you know but in some places the orders can be very very short like three months six months and I mean the judge might have some discretion to make it larger but it's like that's a starting point or you know and then it can be renewed. So that varies and that's very important. The length of it is very important. And ever since I've stopped being in court all the time I have noticed in Bucks County that people are starting to agree to these shorter times it can be up to three years. And when I was in court and people would you know the defense attorney would try to argue with me well let's make it a year I'd say no why should we make it a year? Why should he be able to abuse her in the it it after that so we only have three we should have more that's it you know but now I see I hear because I often help uh lawyers and or or victims who don't have lawyers I see that there's gradually getting this practice you know the defense attorneys are starting to make headway and getting this practice where it's like well let's you know let's make it shorter let's we don't have to make it a real long time. So there's you know you're it's always a fight to keep up what you win and there's always a fight to make things better.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Yeah which is really weird that it's okay it's okay to abuse after this time frame but this this initial time frame it's not okay. And then the consequences of violating those orders vary as well right yes they do right I mean it's contempt and then there's a question of what happens my experience is that typically what happens is that uh the order is extended and there's some you know maybe maybe the guy gets admonished and maybe not um Pennsylvania has up has up to six months in jail as a possibility and nobody that I know of while I was practicing ever got that except me.

Why Meg Wrote The Book

SPEAKER_00 49:47

I I don't know of anyone else who ever sent the guy to jail. My best was I did get the full six months which is very exciting. People would be like having celebrations but it's like it's there and you know you have to try and get it. You have to you know it's because like abuses often do not think that they're doing anything wrong. You know they live in a misogynist society. They believe that they're the ones that are privileged and have the rights and that the women are the ones who are just not acting correctly and are doing things wrong and they have the right to admonish them in the ways that they consider to be um work to consider to work well in their case. And so you have to you know you have to going to jail is a great way to break that down to make the guy think no you know actually actually I think I might have done something wrong. But that's very hard to get and and not every state even has that as an option.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

That's it's just I don't know I I feel like it's just continuing reinforcement that they can continue to get away with whatever they want to do.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Yeah yeah I mean there are some sometimes when the the abuse is so great that there's criminal charges that way you can you know that's a a different level of abuse that sometimes succeeds in okay so specifically with the book what's why did you decide to write it? Well you know when I all the way through my career when I was working on cases if I ever mentioned the case to people they would say oh I you know or I'd talk about the way the judges acted in a case that I had seen in court they would be like oh I can't believe that that can't be happening. And I thought you know when I have a chance and I've always been a writer I thought when I have a chance I'm going to tell some of these stories uh in a way that people can read and understand and enjoy and it seems funny to say enjoy about a book like that but I I, you know, I do have there's a lot of humor and a lot of uh warmth and a lot of life in these stories um and a lot of inspiration and education. And so I wanted to write a book that would be very readable and understandable and that would educate and inspire people and maybe enrage them so that they would also do some act advocacy of of their own. And so that was my goal and I always wanted to get to it but I never had a minute because I you know uh you get a lot of clients when you represent for free.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah and if you read the book you have like you put in at like 120 hours a day worth of work.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Yeah I just worked night and day I just you know I always was trying to uh just do as much as I could because there was so much need. So I I never had a spare minute until I finally you know retired. Well until I finally stopped going to court. And I don't really feel like I've retired now because I'm still very active in in Cadence law and in and in helping people because a lot of women don't have representation and I often will help them uh or lawyers who have come across a case and are not sure how to proceed might you know I could I talk to them. So um I forget now what I was talking about.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

So so really this book is geared toward really anybody.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

So yeah really for a general audience you know I I don't know if you're familiar with it but there's uh a book called All Creatures Great and Small by uh uh which is about a vet from way back in time early I think early 1900s in Wales but he tells this story it's you know he's a vet but he and when I read this book I just loved it so much. James Harriet is the author uh and it's a very famous book and it's it's been published all across the world and it you know it's about animals and being a vet and it's but but really what it showed was all kinds of things about the practice of veterinary medicine at the time about the way that the different farmers treated their animals about animals and about and it had so much richness to it and it was told in these little stories some of them sad some of them funny and I just thought that's the way I want to tell my stories in that kind of way so every chapter is is a story and uh about a case and and tries to convey all that kind of information in a way that is not uh that's easy reading um but um uh educational.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Yeah and I found it like you said it is kind of weird to say entertaining but it was entertaining uh like I I'm visualizing I mentioned before I'm visualizing this hippie coming into the courtroom and it was just was really so well written and I think I I probably experienced all the emotions that you were trying to get out of a reader there was rage there was this desire to do more there's some sadness there's a lot of education I think this book would prove to be very very helpful for anyone who's navigating the family law system as a victim or survivor. You start to unfortunately you may not end up with a lawyer who's your advocate. So you have to advocate for yourself. And I think this gives like a lot of good basic knowledge for you know those of the the victims and survivors getting into the court system and understanding some of the terminology and having a grasp on what they're potentially up against.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

And I think even I I don't know I I would never go to practice law I think I would make a horrible attorney but I think this would actually be very good also for law students to absolutely yeah that was another intent of mine to try and educate people who are interested in being lawyers and lawyers about how to be a good lawyer and what you have to do when you're representing the underdog when you're when you're fighting against myth the kinds of things you have to do. You have to be a little cagey I love it.

Resources Hope And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 55:59

I love it. Uh one thing this sorry it this kind of comes out of sequence but I I forgot I had taken notes to talk about this is some of the verbiage that you were mentioning that you can't stand and it's one that I really bothers me is domestic dispute. When and actually I had one of my guests come in uh she was she's from my hometown and her mother was murdered by her stepfather and the way the media publicized all of it was woman killed in domestic dispute and she opened the door and he killed her. So I didn't understand where the dispute was and I can't remember what you gave an example of how oh if somebody were to come in to rob a bank yes not that's not a dispute.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Right. Yeah like somebody comes in to rob a bank they may shoot the per they a teller or whatever and it's like oh you know teller killed in the bank banking dispute you know that's the kind of thing that it is it it's a way of diminishing it it's a euphemism that takes away the reality um and because they don't want to see the reality. Right.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Right okay there's so many more avenues I could go down but I don't want to take your entire time and I want to make sure that you got to talk about everything you wanted to talk about. So is there anything that we missed on your end?

SPEAKER_00 57:25

No I'm happy to you know I'm fine okay so if if people wanted to get your book or find out more about you, is there anything any place you could direct them to um yeah well I'd say like I guess one thing I like to say is that I want to give my daughter credit for the name of the book not if I can help it because I'm not very good at naming things and I didn't know what to call it. And my daughter reminded me that when I would hear about some situation uh and I would say not if I can help it and so that's let me have the name of the book and that's you know sort of that's the point that if you can help it you know you have to do something about it. The book is available from any bookseller. My website is MegGroff.com um my publisher's website is rivertownsbooks.com and it's available everywhere Amazon or your local well local bookstore if they don't have it you should fusset them to get it yes for sure okay and then in closing do you have any parting words of wisdom or encouragement that you would like to leave with listeners well I think it can be discouraging you know that there's so many things wrong but it it's also encouraging that there's so many that there's so many fights that are successful and that there's so much that can be done and that whatever way you can do things some of the people that have read my book have told me that they have volunteered at the local women's shelter because of it. They thought that they could do that or they have they've written uh you know to their congressmen or something they've looked at their law and seen so there's so many there are so many things that can be done and that it's important not to become discouraged as discouraging as it may seem because progress is made and it has to be made and has to be put to to be maintained but that can happen and everyone can play a part okay thank you so much thank you for my goodness your decades of uh dedication to all victims and survivors and your book and your time today thank you so much you're welcome thank you again for joining me today Meg and thank you warriors for listening I've included the link Meg was referring to in the show notes I will be back next week with another episode for you until then stay strong and wherever you are in your journey always remember you are not alone find more information register as a guest or leave a review by going to the website onein3podcast.com that's the number one the number three podcast dot com.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

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