Coercive Control, Grooming & Sex Trafficking Explained with Eric Robinson I Ep. 118

Welcome And Eric’s Unusual Career

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi, Warriors. Welcome to One in Three. I'm your host, Ingrid. While this podcast started off with a focus on domestic violence, you may have noticed it's expanded into conversations around human trafficking because these two worlds are often deeply intertwined.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

My guest today brings a powerful and unique perspective. Eric Robinson's career took him from Baptist pastor to FBI agent, and he's here to share insights into the realities of human trafficking. Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Hi, Eric. Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

I am doing very well, Ingrid. I appreciate you having me on the show.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I appreciate you coming on, and I'm thrilled to have you on one and three. Before we start talking about everything we're going to talk about, could you share a little bit about yourself so listeners can get to know you?

SPEAKER_00 0:56

I just retired two months, two months ago from 24 years as an FBI agent, where I got to I investigated just about every violation the Bureau had at some point. Crimes against children, gangs, drugs, public corruption, white-collar crimes, counterterrorism. And uh I also got to serve for 15 years as a SWAT operator, which brought me into a lot of interesting experiences along the way. So started out my career in Chicago and then moved back home to the Toledo, Ohio area where life is a lot slower and much better. Yeah, it is. Oh yeah. Also before that, I was a Baptist pastor.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Oh yeah. And that helped play into your role a little bit, I think, probably with the FBI.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Absolutely. The we've got all sorts of technology in the FBI. We have warrants that we can write, we've got databases, and yet at some point you have to interact with humans. So those skills that I relied upon, that I had developed in ministry, definitely came to work regularly as I was interacting with victims, with witnesses, uh, handling informants, and even interacting with criminals. So those things that I learned about this is how people act and what they need, that was at play for 24 years in the FBI.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

I'm sure. So you have one of those careers that I would just love to sit and every single day have you tell me a new story or multiple stories and go on and on. But we're not going to do that. You I know you've guessed it on lots of other podcasts. So if people want to hear more stories, they can

What Sex Trafficking Really Means

SPEAKER_02 2:49

search you out. But to focus on the theme for one and three, we talk about domestic violence, and and I've recently also dove into human trafficking because there is so much intertwined there. And there's a lot of misunderstanding around human sex trafficking. And people, when you think of trafficking, I think you and I discussed this during our pre-interview. The whole Liam Neeson will find you.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yeah, it's people think of traffic. And it's it's unfortunate that the word traffic is used because naturally you think I am taking you somewhere. So I have kidnapped you and I'll have you in this area. You could be legitimately just say, for example, as a woman, you could be trafficked and in your home by an abusive partner. You could be never moving, um, no, no physical abuse, but in federal standards, there could be force, fraud, or coercion that leads into this. That's for an adult. For a child, you just you know, obviously promoting someone to have sex with adults as a child, that's trafficking right there. But for an adult, they could be sex trafficked without ever leaving the area, just through coercion or the notion of a threat, it there doesn't have to be any type of physical handling that goes on.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

And that is where there's just so much misunderstanding. I had a guest on who spoke about how she was trafficked by her partner. And even though there wasn't an exchange of money, that there's still this gratification that the her partner at the time was, I don't know, whatever, whatever gratification, his own control gratification, sexual gratification, whatever his source was, that was that was the gain. It wasn't monetary, but that was the gain.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Right. And and and it can show up in so many

Runaways, Pimps, And Community Myths

SPEAKER_00 5:00

ways. So in Toledo, Ohio, there is this notion that uh there's generations of trafficking because in 2005 there was a sting in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, at a truck stop, and an inordinate number of teenage girls and pimps were rounded up that were from Toledo. So Toledo got this idea like, oh wow, it's everywhere. And what I had seen then from that is I mean, thankfully, the positive is now a focus was on sex trafficking in this area, and so the local universities now started holding uh regular conferences. But the negative side is stories came about that, oh, you know, did you hear about that girl who was kidnapped from the mall and they they stuck a needle in her when she was in the bathroom, need to be careful, and and those those things are unnecessary, they're not true. The trafficking that we saw were from runaway girls who were now on their own, desperate, needing to raise money, and were prostituting on their own. And along comes a pimp who can manipulate and keeps them doing it, but perhaps even more, but benefits off of it. So whereas Ingrid, you or I run into this 15-year-old girl who's prostituting, and we say, Oh, let me help you, the pimp comes along and does the opposite of what you or I would do or a reasonable human being to take care of them.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Okay, so then where do you draw the line between this is prostitution and uh apologies if either one of us are using terminology that's offensive because I know that uh politically speaking it's sex work or but what's the difference between somebody prostituting and having a a manager versus trafficking?

SPEAKER_00 6:59

That's trafficking. Right. So so if I in any way gain a benefit from the promotion of your prostitution, your sex work, that's trafficking. Legitimately, if I knowingly drive you to the hotel, that's trafficking. If I promote you online because I know how to work this website better than you, that's trafficking. Now, in in minor cases where I do that once, you know, no one I doubt would get charged, but if it it in many ways it is legitimately, if anyone takes an action other than what you or I would do in encountering a young a girl who's prostituting, that's trafficking to support this.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Right. And okay, so then technically speaking, can an underage person be considered a prostitute, or is that well it's a uh it's it's a simple label, and and I agree, uh sex worker is is a term that's used um uh often as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

But these are these were girls, these were teenage girls, and then obviously we were we would run into adults, some women who may be trafficked but are just under coercion. Uh I had one investigation that involved uh well actually we had we've had a couple um uh someone who had a mental illness but then was being taken advantage as an adult. And and that's the sex trafficking, and there's even labor trafficking that can be looked into as well.

Truth Versus Proof In Court

SPEAKER_02 8:48

All sorts of things. Uh so I don't want to put you on the spot to make any uh calls on the this case, but a lot of people are familiar with the Diddy case and how that was determined to not be sex trafficking. But me, I watched the documentary on Netflix, and to me that is trafficking because he's using coercion, he's using violence to force her into sex acts that she wouldn't necessarily have been doing.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah, that's that's you running into the dilemma that as agents we would often run into, not just in this case, but where I can I there's truth and then there's proving in a court of law. Like there's many things that we would run up against in the FBI where I know that this is true. I I I could tell you and I could tell a hundred other people, and they go, yep, that seems right. And then let's start arguing it back and forth with uh attorneys, and how does that apply to the law? So I don't know in detail, but yes, everything that I had seen about that sounded like, yep, that sounds like trafficking, but it's much more difficult to scholarly define it and then legally prove it.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Right. And the legal system's difficult and all, and I talk about that frequently on this podcast, especially with family court and uh victims of domestic violence going into there and what you have to prove and biases and opinions of those who are in charge of making the decisions, that is all very complicated. So in other words, trafficking's happening in everyone's communities, it's out there.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

It is. And and I again the these are if you see runaway girls, that's gonna be obvious. The uh the issues are if you have adult women, uh you could you could sit down and discuss this with them, and they would insist that they're not being trafficked because they don't see it. Like it's you know, two fish saying, How's the water, and the other says, What's water? When when the victim is in it, they don't realize it until later. And we I saw that with some of the the teen victims, that they, you know, I I had so many snotty tissues in my vehicle because they're crying while we're taking away the love of their life. This man who's 10, 15 years older, and they don't like they don't realize it. This is this is probably the first adult that's ever shown them love. Well, that love is manipulative, and this man knows exactly how to get her to do what he wants, but she's feeling love, and we're breaking that up, and it's not until much later that the separation comes and they can say, Oh, okay, yeah, I get it. That that was terrible.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Yeah, because these guys, and I'm going to generalize by saying guys, but women can do the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

I did have a female pimp.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Really?

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Okay. So uh they're good at what they do, they know how to manipulate, they know how to take advantage of vulnerable people, vulnerable situations, and how to keep you trapped, too.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah, and and also they'll have other women who've now worked up the chain who who then are used by the man to keep them in line, keep the the herd in in place. So that that goes on, and then these men are learning from that culture not just the steps to take, how they control women, but also that is the height of masculinity. You are praised for your ability to control women, and you know how how many how many different girls you have in your pen that you've got. All of these things now motivate the pimp, the man, to find more women and keep them in control and and use them to make money.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

I guess a very popular and not popular is not the word. Everybody knows about the big one, Epstein, and that whole hierarchy of how he had involved other women to get victims, keep the victims in place, and continue to find more.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Well, right. And and with Ghlaine Maxwell, well, I can trust her. She's a she's a woman. I mean, I can understand how teen girls or young young women might fear a man recruiting and and see ulterior motives, but this is another woman, so that makes it safe. Well, that's on stage that we can see this same thing is gonna be done, but woman-to-woman, girl to girl, closer to their age. You don't have a 40-year-old woman saying, Hey, I come along and do this. You've got a 21-year-old woman trying to convince a 17-year-old girl that everything is safe and this is what you're gonna the benefits you're gonna get out of it.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Well, and of course, that story's hit the media so much. And so many people have there's books you can read, there's documentaries, and it's really easy for all of us to watch and say, I would never, ever, ever have gotten involved with something like that. But it it's not just this blatant, hey, I'm gonna go traffic you, you in?

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yeah. And then you see the reluctance for people to step forward because I mean, time and again with with Cosby or others, people, women, victims, are reluctant to be the first because it's shameful, because they've probably tried to speak up before and no one listened. So why bother? And now, you know, finally it it takes it almost takes the the one valiant one to move ahead or a group coming together to raise their hand and say this is what happened.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Right. And even in those cases, again, we'll I'll refer to the Epstein trial is that there was a group of people. It's been publicized, it's national, international news, and still we're not really seeing the consequences of these individuals' actions.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

What yeah, what's happened? I haven't gotten justice, so why bother? And and then that makes it more difficult for the next group of victims. They're like, look, like we powerful men can get away with it. Why why should I bother?

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Right.

Red Flags People Often Miss

SPEAKER_02 15:46

So I suppose what are signs that if you come across somebody that they could be a victim of trafficking, that you might pick up on.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Yeah. So I mean you can always ask, but as I said, these are unreliable witnesses because they may just say no, and you can't leave it at just that. When we worked with uh Guardian Ed Litems, so the attorneys who would represent the the juveniles, we would work with those in the juvenile court system, and they would let us know like, look, we we had a girl come in and she had to stay for two weeks in lockup, but she had the newest iPhone with her, she had jewelry. Um, you know, there was a 26-year-old man waiting for her that definitely wasn't her brother. So those were the things that people were bringing to us that we could see. So what doesn't fit together is runaway girl, new iPhone, uh, girl on the streets, nice jewelry, nice clothes, you know. That's what you have to rely upon more. And it's been years now that the hotel industry has very successfully been educating their people to say this is what you will see. So they're the ones more likely to see a man 10 years older than someone strong arming, keeping her quiet, keeping her isolated.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

That makes sense. So what happens, how does the FBI do does the FBI get involved with every trafficking case or is it specific?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Uh well, not not every trafficking case we can because there's gonna be like if if a a local department comes upon this, they'll often take it federal for us because the charge is gonna be a lot harder. So we like that. But we'll also work the task force that I ran for a time and the one that's still going now beyond me uh works with local police and and state agencies so that we can mix and match as it applies. So, you know, look, we're trying to locate these juveniles. So we're we're seeking to set up stings. Okay, the juvenile didn't come, but this pimp brought a an adult woman, so now we're gonna have local charges because there's no yeah, nothing we can bring federally. So we're we're you we're working in coalition with each other to say what's the best that we can bring against this individual.

Inside The FBI Trafficking Task Force

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Let's talk about that task force for a minute. So, what was it? What did they do?

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Or what do they do? So it has morphed over the years. So in 2005, when the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania sting happened, the FBI said we need to set up a task force in Toledo, Ohio, and because of that, we had uh Pete, who was a detective for Toledo police on the task force along with others, and we had multiple agents. So we were very successful. So long before I got involved, there were agents working on this task force to try to recover the teen victims. And because of that, because we were successful, then Toledo got this hey, look, these guys are arresting so many pimps, and we're they're seeing so many juveniles recovered. And and the reason was because Toledo is a small city and the FBI had put a lot of effort into this. So I liken it to your neighbor kid gets a BB gun and starts shooting squirrels, and all of a sudden you're like, wow, we got a lot of squirrels around here. Like, no, it's just neighbor kids shooting a lot of squirrels. So we were getting a lot of arrests, a lot of stats, and then it got more and more attention. Over the years, it has moved from the work for uh teenage girls who are being trafficked more to what is referred to as travelers. So typically men who are going to travel to uh meet up with an undercover who is posing as an underage individual or someone who is uh posing online as an individual looking to trade children in the most disgusting ways that you can think of.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Okay. And is that are there tasks for tasks force? Are there task forces what?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

It's like attorneys general. Task force.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah. Uh all throughout the country, or are there specific groups that are located in different sections?

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Largely so the FBI has 56 field offices, and well, I don't know. I'm gonna make the assumption that each field office is gonna have a task force, and then in Toledo, we are off of Cleveland as a headquarters city, and so they had some people working it there, and frankly, Toledo was working it more than Cleveland was, even though Cleveland's a larger city. So it all depends on what's in the area. There will be offshoots in outside of the main field office. There could be ones in you know cities that are not the larger ones that are also working it. And in some cases, it could be just one agent and a police officer, and and they're working both the distribution of CSAM child sexual abuse material, also, you know, maybe work in the teen prostitution or the traveler cases.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Okay. So I'm sorry, I'm hopping back and forth, but my brain, that's how my brain

Rescuing Minors And Keeping Them Safe

SPEAKER_02 21:36

works. Uh so I was thinking about the Guardian Ed Lightum. What is the process once you determine an underage person is being trafficked? Do you immediately get them out of that situation? Do you have to have the right amount of evidence to be able to? And then what happens from there?

SPEAKER_00 21:56

So when we were running these operations. To locate and then rescue the girls. I mean, honestly, the the the easier part was locating them and you know trying to separate them from the pimp. The hard thing was keeping it that way. So we didn't want to be arresting or put putting the victims in jail, and yet many times we we had to because if we just sent them right back to the foster home, right back to the single mom or the abusive dad, they're they're out, you know. We'd have to set up vehicles outside to pick her up. And so that was the difficult part of really trying to get them separated and then start that tough love to sink in. Like, hey, you can trust us. Well, they've been running from the police for years while they're doing this. The police are trying to ruin their one source of income. We're actually doing the same thing, but we're trying to convince them. So between that, the social workers, the guardian ed lightum, um, our our victim coordinators, you know, we're we're trying to get them to a place where they can start being rational. Yeah. I mean, 15-year-olds aren't rational in the first place, and yet here we are, we've got a runaway who's on top of that all being abused.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

So, how often do you have you seen substance abuse being used as a tactic of control or a form of control? I'm just thinking because I had another guest on who came on and talked about how she was heavy into like every drug. And I think it was probably partly as her coping mechanism of what was happening. But then I think it was also utilized as a form of control to keep her from being able to leave.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah, that that's more likely in the adults who are being either and I'll just use the term traffic because sometimes, you know, they're willingly involved, or there may be the coercion or manipulation through the drugs. But yeah, and and it makes sense that the person you're talking to is using the drugs because if you can you know, I bring this up often to try to shock people, and I I know it's it's impolite, but especially speaking with a woman, if you can imagine what it would take for you to cross that threshold to say, I will now go have sex with strange men multiple times a day, that's a huge barrier to cross. So in order for you to cross it, you're probably broken already, or you are so very desperate that you're just gonna close your eyes and go. So yeah, you you need drugs. Like I'm so hurt, I'm so traumatized that I'm willing to have sex with strange men all day long, disgusting people. I need drugs to numb out and get away from that, of course.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Right. And I was gonna say, pretty woman, the movie Pretty Woman that glorifies it and makes it like this. Yeah, you have your clients are Richard Gere type of uh who treats you sweet. Yes, you turn into a princess at the end. Um, how often, because trafficking can happen in these homes, it can't you it can be an intimate partner, it can be a sibling, a parent, or whatever. How often do you see multiple victims associated with one case? Or is it often just one person?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

No, the cases that we worked were the I mean, it would be a pimp who is trying to get a stable of women as much as he can control. And again, if I may, the the term that they use is the bottom bitch. So that is going to be often the more tenured prostitute who is now you know the pimp can trust her, and now she's actually, in a sense, the office manager handling them. And so, you know, he's gonna look to have two, three, four, five girls of varying ages, and knowing very well that if he gets caught with any of the underage girls, then he's spending a long, a long time in federal prison. If he could get caught on a state or local charge of promoting prostitution, yeah, he might spend a few months depending on what's going on. So, you know, all of that is being done so that he can maximize his income, knowing that younger girls are going to earn more, um, but also try to minimize his exposure to prison time.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Okay, so I'm jumping again. Uh so if somebody recognizes that somebody may be getting trafficked, either a child or adult, I suppose, what can do they notify local authorities? Do they try to talk? I I just I don't want people to get put them themselves in danger by trying to intervene themselves. But then Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah, the difficulty is if you intervene and now you may be faced with violence as well. Um and the the hard thing here is your question kind of veers into a different topic that I usually address with people, and that is if you're coming to the police or you're coming to the FBI with a possible criminal violation, do it in person. Don't just you know call the hotline, have information ready, some evidence, not just I really think this is happening because of these vague things, because cops are busy, FBI's busy, and if there's an opportunity to blow you off, we will, because we don't want to chase something that won't be there, but having all that you need to show that this may be happening, and if anything that you can do then to get involved under the direction of the FBI or police, then being aware of that, like, hey, if you need to, I can go into the house because I've been in there before, I can ask her these questions, whatever might be, to say, look, we can get some more confirming evidence too.

Grooming Cases And Alternate Charges

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Have you ever been able to for a someone that's underage, and you can't prove that there's actual trafficking, but you can prove that there is sex with a minor. Do you ever take that route?

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Uh yes. And so I've had cases with that as well, where you know, I had one case where a guy traveled about an hour and a half to have a relationship. He was 27, I think, and the boy was 13, but he looked like he was 10. And I mean, it was one where the boy was willingly involved. So, you know, at first you look at it, and the the parents came in with their son because they had seen things on his iPad of a man conversing with him, and the boy was like happy, joking around, and I remember thinking, this is unusual. Like, he doesn't seem to be traumatized in the least. And he talked about how, you know, they they went on outings, they went to an amusement park, and yes, also they engaged in sexual activity, and then it wasn't until again there there became more and more separation and more adults involved speaking some wisdom, not directly to the boy, but about the topic that he then started becoming angry about what had been done to him. Now, now he started seeing this as okay, well, this isn't just you know a boyfriend who's older. This is a man who took advantage and and this is wrong and this is rape.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Right. So the whole grooming process. So his in that case, his parents weren't involved in that part. How did they find out?

SPEAKER_00 30:25

They um the the subject s suggested, I don't know, I forget how they first were in contact, but he suggested they go to Kick. And on the Kick app, you know, now they're sharing discussions that a man shouldn't be having with a boy, and from that it became easy for us to get uh a search warrant on him. So the the parents were very calm as well until we had the interview with the with the victim with the boy, and he talked about how one night he was staying up late watching movies, and the subject said, Oh, can I come over? And he had sexually assaulted the boy in the parents' house in the basement while they were asleep, and then they just had to deal with what could we have done? You know, like this is right under our roof, and we didn't know it. And it it I th I am guessing, because it kind of transferred to me, that it felt like violating further, not just their son, but this was in their space in their house.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

I mean, he probably did that on purpose too, just to have that extra. Did they know him?

SPEAKER_00 31:45

No. Oh my gosh. He he was just somebody who was out looking for boys. And and and he he said he loved him. And you know, I again this is someone who came from uh a warped position and thought this warped idea was fine, that it that it could be love, while also knowing it's not accepted by society, so I have to hide it. So all of that together, very complex, that you have people who say, I know this is wrong by law and by what people would say. I don't think it's morally wrong because I I feel love and he expresses love to me. And so that's how I can say this is fine, but we still need to hide it.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

So actually, that that story makes me think of another question.

Parenting Boundaries For Apps And Devices

SPEAKER_02 32:41

There are so many apps out there, and the internet is at literally everyone's fingertips. Are there any specific apps that are considered more dangerous for children to be on? I know I've heard a lot about Discord that uh and I just I my I have kids and they have devices, but I'm very, very specific. There is no interacting with other people. Any friends on any games actually has to be a friend that I know personally, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

And are they hooked up to your Apple ID as well? Yes. So that you know if they would download a new app.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

And and that's gonna be probably the biggest key without being too invasive. And then it's on you. I I'll just say this, and I say this less as an FBI agent, more as a father, that the standards need to be set young so that you don't get to be 16 and all of a sudden you go, oh, this is a little too far, and I'm gonna start pulling the reins back. That early on, that 10, 11, 12, now that we're moving into this, of of of saying, you know, hey, this is normal, this is how we're gonna have some control and some input. I want you to have freedom, but also, you know, within these guidelines. So the the earlier that a parent can say, here's here's a very natural thing that I'm gonna do. I'm gonna make sure that I know what apps you have, and then I'm gonna have a conversation with you about it. I'd like you to be honest. Because otherwise, then you have a situation where things are hidden and the only reason the parents found out was happenstance.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

So

The 764 Network And Teen Exploitation

SPEAKER_02 34:31

scary. Uh and I know the statistics of abuse happening to children, specifically sexual abuse, it's more often somebody they know.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Versus a stranger. Is does the same thing apply for trafficking of children? More often someone they know?

SPEAKER_00 34:51

From my experience, which is not going to be a huge sample size because it's not like it's a hundred different girls, but uh no, that it won't be it hasn't been people they know because the people they know aren't usually the monsters who can say, Oh, I I'll traffic girls, I have no problem with that. It's it's most often someone looking out for them, making an appeal at the mall. So you know, the mall story isn't true where you're kidnapped, but the mall story is true where I'm trying to make an appeal to you with buying you a gift, and we'll see where this goes, um, or people chatting online of you know what comes next. And and then for the past couple of years, the FBI has been looking into an online group called 764, which is a disgusting blend of child pornography and um Nazism and gore and cutting, and and they prey upon teens who often are in forums dealing with suicide or loneliness or whatever, and now teens are manipulating teens to harm themselves and also to share uh share CSAM.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

It's disgusting.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Well, and the thing is when you're outside of it and you're hearing something like this, it just sounds like such an obvious, oh, these are really bad people trying to get me to do something horrible, but again, they're not coming out as this. I'm part of this group that's known for all these disgusting things, and I want you to be a participant in it. It's taking taking advantage again of vulnerable people, those with depression or contemplating suicide.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Right. But and then they turn around and they're now brought into this, where now they are the ones who are trying to gain clout by doing the same to the next, and it it's it's very circular. So all of this goes on, and some of the victims and perpetrators, again, you know, 14, 15, 12, um it's mainly children to children, teen to teen. The parents had just they don't have any control, and that's either because they're they're you know not good parents or no one could control this child. And I had one father, I contacted him because we thought his daughter was a victim, and then she was also a perpetrator. And he said, like, he goes, Hey, can I talk to you? Like, do you have any advice? Like, my wife and I lock our door to our bedroom because our daughter like tries to break in and has fits, and then they they just he says, like he's almost crying. He says, I don't know what to do, I don't want to call the police on her. And you know, so we had a discussion there about steps he could take.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

That's so terrifying of when you're stuck in the place of where you're afraid of your child, but you're also afraid for your child.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Yes, and and she she definitely had mental illness, and that's you know, part of what drives them into these groups. It's it's nihilistic, it's full of gore, and then they're harming themselves and trying to get you know another teen to maybe kill a family pet on film, and they create these highlight reels that they can share and gain clout. But you know, here's someone with mental illness who's got something that dad wants to help her, and she's not only denying that, but getting further into something that's uh awful online.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

This is so horrifying. It makes you want to just like live in a bubble.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Let's let's let's share some good stories. Yeah, let's do that. Let's move into something positive.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Let's

Irreverend And Life After The FBI

SPEAKER_02 38:55

do that. Um okay, I think we're gonna have to change the podcast a little bit. What's a happy thing? Well, okay, so you are writing a book.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Let's talk about that. Yes, let's talk about that. That's very happy. I have written a book that will be published and out in the fall. It's called Irreverend, because as we mentioned, I was a reverend, but uh, we got involved in some irreverent things. So it's irreverent from saving souls to chasing sinners in the FBI. And I write about what would happen if you took a Baptist pastor who'd never handled a gun before, and you stuck him in the FBI for 24 years, because I got to see some crazy things and some remarkable things, and was a part of some investigations that made a real impact on the community, and yet I was just a guy who used to be a pastor.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

So is this a book that's based on facts, a factual book?

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Yes, all facts, and I I never lost the fascination of being in the FBI from the very first when they said, Hey, come on board. And I went, Are you serious? And there are many times where I just sit back and go, I can't believe I get to do this. This is amazing. So I got to be a part of this, and when agents would sit around and tell stories, you know, like we're all telling crazy stories, and then I realized, oh my gosh, like we're just commonly talking about this stuff, but it's that's pretty remarkable. And so I think people will read some of the stuff that I got to see, and and most agents could do the same and write about them. I just do it better. Bring some bring some humor and insight to it, but uh, but also uniquely because I never met a Baptist pastor who became an FBI agent.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

No, and actually, how did that happen?

SPEAKER_00 40:53

I was uh working in the church and we had a church that uh was doing very well. I had started with a core group of people, we planted it, and I told that core group, I want us to have a church free of judgment. I want us to reach out to people who don't feel like they fit in in church. And I even gave them a flinch test to say, hey, if somebody comes to our church and they're wearing a concert t-shirt that says Deaf Leopard, can you greet them without flinching? What if you smell alcohol in their breath? What if there's piercings? What if they're a gay couple? Like we need to be able to let them feel very honestly like this is a place for them. Um, unfortunately, even though we were doing very well and I was doing church the way I thought it should, when you reach out to people who haven't been in church before, a lot of them have personal issues, and they brought those with them, and I was not capable of doing my job in a way that separated me from their problems. So for two years straight, every single day of my life, I had stress-related headaches because I couldn't let go of their stuff. And so, and this is true, I had to find a job with less stress, and so I joined the FBI.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Where there's so many more detailed, horrific things.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

But it's less, it was different stress. That like the even the hard things that we I saw that some of the stuff we're talking about, where I say, let's talk about something nicer. It it didn't bother me because I didn't own it. I could try to bring justice for that young boy, and I did. I could try to find that teenage girl and get her away from that guy, and we did. And, you know, they still had problems beyond, and maybe their life wasn't solved, but I did my part, and now I could move on to next task. I I could go to a house where a guy with guns might oppose us violently and break in a door and arrest him, and now I'm done and move on to next task. So that stress now goes away.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Right. Whereas a pastor, you're never off.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

I I was able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Even on your days off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

I wasn't able to. And uh other men have been better at it than me, so bless them. But I can shoot better than they can, so there's that.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

And apparently write better than them, too.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

I think I think so.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Okay.

DARVO And Coercive Control Tactics

SPEAKER_02 43:35

I I'm trying to think if there is anything. Oh, we did want to talk about Darvo a little bit. I've mentioned it before in other episodes, but that's something that is not specific just to domestic violence. It's also, like I said, trafficking and domestic violence do intersect quite a bit. But could you just discuss Darvo a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 43:59

So Darvo is an acronym for deny what is being said to you. So the the uh um offender will do this, they'll deny that's not true, accuse, and reverse the victim and offender roles. So not only is that not true, but I'm gonna throw things at you, and and how dare you say that to me because you are harming me. So it it the biggest part is it this is a way that I gain control as an offender by putting you on your heels with my accusations and then manipulating you, making you feel bad about what you're doing by saying, You're the offender, actually, you're you're you're the one attacking me. And so that's a uh I I don't know that the pimps are aware of the terminology, but that that way of keeping whatever they can do to keep women on their or girls on their heels, they're going to use tactics like that.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Right. And it also for the people outside, if they use that tactic, it makes them not look like the bad guy necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Yes. And now you know to shut up and stop questioning me. You know, you you can't bring something to me. And it doesn't even have to be something harsh. It could be something as simple as, yeah, I you know, I'm wondering if we have to do this, and now I'm going to turn that if it's not if it's something I don't like, I don't like you questioning me. Now I'm going to stop you, I'm going to accuse you of something, and then I'm going to try to make you feel bad because why would you bring that to me and now put you in your place? So that's going to happen a lot in those domestic situations within where someone may be trafficked and whatever types of control I mean, it's going to go, it's going to be going from the beginning and leveling up. And there does not have to be physical violence. There can just be that threat or the presence or the knowledge. Like you know that I can hurt you, or I demonstrate what I might do by punching walls or something like that. So I don't have to touch you. I don't even have to give a direct threat. I mean, it's it's very easily could be it's just my physical presence. But if I need to, I will also make that suggestion by punching a wall.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

And it's that that lasts with the victims, even once they're out of the situation, that hinders healing or slows down healing because you have that psychological remnant that's just stuck in there of where you think I did something wrong. I was the perpetrator or the offender in these cases, or I'm not going to be believed, or any of those things.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Yes. And if I'm smart, I will not make marks on you, or perhaps there's one and now you can always be reminded of it, but there's much that can be done. And and and so now you're placed in a position where if you ever do think you have something to report or complain about, you question that not only from what I've done, what the offender's done to make you question it, but because well, it's not abuse because uh he hasn't hit me. And so it again, it's it's it's the two fish, you know, how's the water? Well, what's water? You need someone who's outside of that fishbowl who can bring light to you. The kind of thing where when we would pull when I pulled that boy out, you know, with the parents, and he started to realize, oh, that is unnatural. A 27-year-old man shouldn't be with a boy half his age. That you know, now I can see this. I think that many victims, if they spoke with someone outside of the fishbowl, would get a reaction of, are you serious? Like they would see shock, whereas you go, you know, oh, I I didn't realize. You know, those who are in it just don't realize.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Well, and then the the deny and the attack and all of it, it also makes you question your own sanity. I guess that didn't happen, or it didn't happen the way I thought it happened, or I overreacted to something that was really not that big of a deal.