Male Victims Matter: Sexual Assault, Domestic Violence & Trauma with Liana Lucine I Ep. 125

Opening And Why Men Are Ignored

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, Warriors. Welcome to 1 in 3. I'm your host, Ingrid. Domestic violence doesn't discriminate against gender, but most conversations still focus on male perpetrators and female victims. Today, Liana joins me to discuss her book, Men Ignored, and why it's important to recognize men can be victims and survivors of sexual harassment and domestic violence. Now, acknowledging men can be victims doesn't take away from women. It reminds us that abuse is not a gender issue, it's an abuse issue. Every survivor deserves to be heard, seen, and believed. Let's dive into today's conversation. Hi, Liana. Thank you so much for joining me and welcome to One and Three. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here. It is a pleasure to have you. And before we get into, you you authored a book, but and we're going to talk about that. But before we get into that, could you share a brief background about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 0:59

So uh a little bit about me. Um the majority of my crew was as a police officer in the Metropolitan Police Service, which is in London in the UK. It's the biggest police force that we have. That was from 2001 to 2019. Um, it was during that time that I became qualified as a trainer. So I trained recruits and then I trained specialist units and uh officers. And then I left and I went into training in the private sector. So I started uh design delivery of training in multiple different industries, um, different companies, and ended up as a training manager. So I've been doing that for the last few years. Um, and the main focus of my work recently has been on male victims of sexual assault, harassment, and abuse, um, which the book Men Ignored is based on.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yes, and I have the book for people who are watching. This is what it looks like. And I I got it off of Amazon. I think there's probably are there a few places to get it. Okay, perfect. And usually I like to talk and then go into details about the book at the end, but I think in this case, let's dive into the book because I think our conversation will flow from the contents of the book. That's a that's the main purpose of this. Before we talk about the contents, what made you want to actually write this book?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Um, well, it's something that has been part of my life, and I've noticed really for gosh, a long time now, but certainly the last 15, 20 years, a lot more. And I think really what was happening is um Me Too came about, which was just fantastic, wonderful. For a woman of my age now, 52, I've seen a real improvement, a real progress in the help and support given to female victims, which is great. And I think I was waiting to see the same thing happen for male victims. There was a little bit of talk about it during Me Too, one or two celebrities came out, but it never really took off. So I think I just sort of got to this point where I thought, wow, no, no one's talking about it. Um, they're still being dismissed,

Liana’s Policing And Training Background

SPEAKER_02 3:00

they're still being ignored, male victims in so many aspects. And I just felt I kind of had to just get it out and get it down on paper.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

I think you're absolutely right. I started this podcast four years ago, and it was, I guess it was three years. I'm in my fourth year going forward, but I wanted to find male survivors to come on the podcast because domestic violence knows no gender.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

And it was very difficult to find. I have I have had a handful of men who have come on, and there's a there's a lot of reasons behind that. Yes. And and you go into that detail in the book and you share some stories, which I think is really helpful because male victims of sexual violence and domestic abuse are completely, I can't say completely, they're not completely ignored. If they were completely ignored, this book wouldn't exist, right? Uh, but they are largely ignored and minimized, I think, in the world of advocacy. Yes, absolutely. So is there any were there any stories that stood out to you in the book that you would want to highlight right now?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

I think for me, um, when I think about all the stories and experiences that men have shared with me over the years, what always struck me was the very similar response and reaction they got from somebody when they tried to speak out. Um, and it was the inequality of it, um, and and I just couldn't believe really the sort of the double standards um when they would tell me this. That basically, let's say a man was grabbed, sexually assaulted by a woman and he went to tell his supervisor. This is one of the stories. The supervisor just laughed and called him lucky. He said, Ray, what you fit you enjoy it? Oh, you're so lucky. Because there is this myth that all men enjoy any type of sexual contact from a woman anytime, anywhere, anyhow, which of course is absolute rubbish. And what kept striking me over and over again as several men told me very, very similar stories, is that I believe in this day and age, 2026, if a girl or a woman said to us that she'd been sexually assaulted by a man, I don't think we would laugh and tell her she was lucky. I think we've made enough progress with female victims that we wouldn't do that now. But we're still doing that with men. And I just can't believe that so many people don't see the inequality there, the, the, the, the contradiction. Um, it was, it's, it's just unbelievable. And and that actually, I've spoken to people who think that it's okay to treat men like that. And that just horrifies me, really.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

I yes, I agree with you. And I think there's such a wide area of inconsistencies. So a woman can, if something upsets her, she can be upset about it. She became she can be emotional about it. But a man, you're told to man up. And I think what I'm glad you

Why She Wrote Men Ignored

SPEAKER_00 6:10

mentioned myths. So there are a lot of myths that surround this topic. And one of them is if you're advocating for men being recognized equally, then at this in the same breath, you are minimizing women victims. And I want I want to talk about that right off the bat because we're both women talking about this. And I want to clear, clear where we are coming from.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yes, absolutely. Um, and I have had one or two comments like that, which I think, without sounding catty, it says more about that person than it does about me, because I wholeheartedly support female victims and female empowerment. I really do. But this is the point. It's not taking anything away from women or female victims if we support male victims. This is not a question of pick one. This is not a question of either or. This is not a question of, oh, we have limited funding, it can only go to one gender. This is not like that at all. I'm not asking to take anything away from women or their progression or their support. All I'm asking for is more support for male victims. And what I would really like to see is that we're not setting genders against each other and we're not separating them and we're not labeling them so much. And what I mean by that is when we say victim, a lot of people will picture a girl or a woman. And when we say suspect or perpetrator, people will often picture a man. And so we have these quite fixed stereotypes in our mind. We're really not seeing the whole or the accurate picture. For example, when you look at domestic abuse in the UK, if you were to ask a lot of members of the public, well, how many male victims do you think there are? What percentage? A lot of people would say, probably five or ten percent. No, actually, it's closer to around 40%. That's how high it is. And we still don't have accurate figures because it is so hard for men to feel safe to disclose. So I think this is there are so many issues which have created this problem. Um, but one of them is that we attach gender labor. So we attach female to victim and we attach male to perpetrator. Um, and it's really not helping people come forward who need to.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Yes. And you actually gave an example in your book of where there was a trainer who said, going forward, I'm going to refer to victims as female and perpetrators as male. They can both be either one, but the majority is female. But that automatically like turns everybody off to the fact that a man can be absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

And as a trainer, I've been a trainer for so many years now, and I see it as my job to be accurate and to be truthful and to give a whole picture. And I think it's lazy for a trainer to go, I'm not going to be bothered to say he and she or he or she. I'm just going to pick one. Oh, because it's the majority, that's okay. No, it's really not okay. And the other thing I've found as a trainer over so many years is that when I'm talking to an audience, let's say I'm talking to an audience of police officers and I'm talking to them about their job, their role, I also know that quite a number of them in that room have been personally affected by this. They have been a victim themselves. So what am I saying to those men in the room? You don't even exist. I'm not even going to acknowledge you with my language. And I think language is so important.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Absolutely. And speaking of language, there are some hotkey terms now. There's toxic masculinity. You know, I'm against a patriarchy, there's misogyny. And I feel like when you hear these terms, it's automatically women versus men or men controlling women. But the thing is, I do think there is a thing called toxic masculinity. I think that does exist. Yes. And it affects, but it the thing is it affects both genders. Again, the man who's not allowed to feel his emotions. And you go into a lot of detail about what boys are taught at a very young age as to what is appropriate and what's not appropriate and how a man should react and how a man should act in different situations.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Yeah, and I think we do it to both genders. So the way we raise our sons and daughters can be very different, sometimes even unconsciously. So I think a lot of the time there isn't even any malice in how we parent. We don't intend to do this, but we all have ideas about what it is to be a man, what it is to be a woman, and we don't realize the downsides, I think, of what we're teaching. You know, so women can grow up struggling with the fact they feel they always have to be attractive or sexually attractive, whereas men don't have that equal burden. But there are other burdens that boys and men have, like they have to be strong, they have to man up, they have to be tough, get through everything, fight people off. They shouldn't, no one should be able to get the better of them or make them a victim because then they're weak and they're not in control. So I think there are lots of things we teach both genders that can end up being, you know, quite problematic for them as they grow up.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

I agree. Uh and one other thing that I've been seeing a lot lately is because there are there are so many stories that are hitting the news. And I feel like the the stories that do hit the news are typically surrounding men being excessively violent to women. And I will read through comments. I I never engage. I just I'm very curious as to what the world is is thinking, what kind of mindset we have right now. And a lot of times, a lot of comments I'm seeing is it's not all men, but it's always a man.

unknown 11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

And again, which is not true at all. It's not accurate. Um, and there's a lot of psychology behind this. If you're constantly seeing news reports where it's a male perpetrator, your brain is going to do the maths and think, okay, well, so they must be. They must always be, or the vast majority, but you're just not seeing it. Um whereas if you worked in statistics

Myths That Silence Male Survivors

SPEAKER_02 12:00

or if you worked in policing or if you worked in some form of care, then you would actually see a much more accurate picture. For example, as a police officer, I would go to loads of incidents where there was a female perpetrator, or it was the woman who was abusing the man, or it was, you know, a same-sex couple. Whereas when I started in policing, those were not the images or scenarios that were in my head from various TV and films I'd watched or books that I'd read. I had the stereotypical image in my head of a man abusing a woman. Now, of course, those scenarios exist in you know millions of forms, but I never saw the whole picture. I never saw how varied that picture is. So I was already biased. And I think this is a problem. If you have only one stereotype, one image in your head, that's what you're looking for, and you will miss all the other variations, all the other truths.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

I think another misconception is, and we've already talked about it, we've touched on it, is that if a man is a victim of sexual assault or domestic abuse, it has to be a same-sex scenario where the man is the aggressor and a man happens to be a victim in that circumstance. And I like how you you're you're very thorough in talking about sexual assault and rape specifically, because that term it doesn't legally, as in the UK, and I I looked at some of the laws here in the US too to in comparison, but you talk about legally rape a man cannot be raped.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Yeah, so the way the law works in the UK, rapes, section one of the Sexual Offenses Act, means to be raped, it needs to be um penile penetration. So there needs to be a penis. So therefore, a woman couldn't rape a man under section one. However, in the UK, we have section four, which is causing sexual activity without consent. So this is where a woman could be prosecuted for making a man perform sexual acts, yeah, um, or engaging in sexual activity and there was no consent involved. So it's not called rape, um, but it still could it still comes under the act. And I think a lot of people in the UK, a lot of men or women are just not aware of this. They just immediately say, well, a woman can't rape a man, so that's it. You know, we're not even going to go there. It's not an offense, it's not a promise, it's not an issue. And anyway, he sh he's a man, he likes he should either enjoy it or he should be big and strong enough to fight it off. But you and I know there are so many powerful psychological elements to abuse which explain why people feel unable to stop these incidents, these things from going on.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Right. You have so many different reactions. You have the fight, flight, freeze, fawn. Yes. And just because you're not screaming, it doesn't mean that it's it's not rape. I looked up, so of course, here in the US, each state carries their own definition for sexual assault, rape, any of those definitions. But the FBI has a definition that's very similar to section what you have in section one, where it is penetration of victims, vagina, or anus, or oral penetration by a sex organ without consent. So I mean, women don't have uh the the the anatomy necessarily to penetrate any like if we're talking about a penile penetration, there we do have other ways that we could penetrate another with an object, yeah. Yes, or the body code, like finger or hand. Yes. So it but it does, I don't know. I think that it the perception is again, women can't necessarily rape. And I think rape is such a strong word because when you say sexual offense or sexual assault, it almost minimizes the act of, well, like what happened? Did uh did a woman just grab him? I mean, yeah. Who doesn't want to be grabbed every once in a while? You know, that whole mindset.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

But again, I think if you flip it in your mind thinking, well, what would I say if it happened to a woman? I would think that was terrible. If a man walked up to it and just grabbed her crotch, you'd think that was terrible. Well, why are we not having that same reaction if it happens to a man? And that's where we're going wrong. Because it's unfair, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Yes. And you, I think you included a story in the book as well, like at work, where a woman went up and grabbed a man and his crotch. And I'm so glad when I read that, I was like, ooh. And I'm like, that's there, that's the response that we should have. Yeah. But I feel like if you're at the coffee, you know, in the in the break room or whatever, and you're having this conversation and a man's like, yeah, she just grabbed me. Depending on who that woman is, if she's found to be attractive, if she's in a position of power, the other men might be like, Oh my gosh, why wouldn't she do that to me? You're a lucky guy. And it just again, it minimizes it does. It's terrible.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

And we see these incidents, say, for example, where a teacher um has become gone with the student. And if it was a male teacher with a female student, people are horrified and they see it as abuse and abuse of power, et cetera, et cetera, rape, sexual assault, it's going on. But if it's the other way around, look at the difference in the comments on social media. All these terrible comments about, wait, well, hey, isn't he lucky? You know, I'd I'd love to have gone with my teacher, et cetera, et cetera. And people just do not see how ridiculous that is, the difference because it's a boy and not a girl.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

And I've read, I've gone in and I've read those comments again, just to see where everyone stands. And the there was one case, I don't remember which state it was in, but the the teacher was very attractive. And she was younger. There wasn't the men the boys were under the age of 18. They were, I think, younger high school students. And she was a younger teacher. She was in her early 20s. So a lot of men are like, this is our dream. Every high school boy has this dream. And what I found remarkable is the women's comments are like, what if these roles were reversed? Yeah. What if this was a male teacher? And so it was like the women were there to support these boys who are abused by their teacher, but the men were there saying, Oh my God, that's amazing. I'm so, I bet these boys had no problem with it.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Yeah, yeah. And then it's terrible that that we have, you know, we've come so far in one way, but not in another. Um, I mean, these attitudes are really still so old now and they really need to change.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yes, I completely agree with that. So, in terms of domestic abuse, I think another myth, and this this does go across all victims, is why didn't you leave when this started happening? And I think in particular, men, when it's physical violence against a man, why didn't you defend yourself?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

But I think this is something that people struggle to understand about domestic abuse. You can hold two truths, you can have contradictory feelings for somebody. You can love someone and hate somebody at the same time. Um, and usually the the victim is in a point where they feel so broken down, their self-esteem is so low and they can be so isolated. They don't have the emotional strength to leave. And in a way, your your vision can almost become distorted when you're a victim in a relationship. And especially if you've had a childhood where you also didn't have a respectful relationship there and you were sort of mistreated. If this is something that you're used to, you in a way can internalize that and feel, oh, well, this is normal for me. This is my normal. This is what I deserve. No one else is going to be treat me any better, any differently. This is all I'm ever going to have. Uh, let me make lemonade out of lemons, let me make the best of it. And you're so used to putting up with bad treatment. It's very difficult to see that you deserve better and that you can get out. And people say just leave. And you think, well, okay, if I told you to leave, how quickly? Where would you go? Where do you think these people can go? It's really difficult to just grab your stuff and go. If you have a job, what about your finances? What about your friends, family, what about all of these links and connections you have? You can't just literally walk out the door with nowhere to go to. Um, it's really not as easy as people think, no matter whether the victim is a man or a woman. So I think there's constant misunderstandings around victims of domestic abuse, which certainly even as a police officer really frustrated me that even my colleagues couldn't see this.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Okay, so as a police officer, and this is the part where I think I'm glad that I'm not in the decision-making realm of either being law enforcement or in the judicial system. But there's there are the ideas of false claims of domestic abuse, and it happens. It's a very small percentage from what I've seen of what happens. But how do you, as law enforcement, go upon a scene where everyone, or not everyone, most people are going in with the idea of, okay, this is a domestic hull. It's involving a man and a woman. Most likely the man is the aggressor. How do you go in and make that decision of, wait a second, this this actually may be where the male is the victim? And you did give a good example of a female law enforcement officer who, upon further questioning, was able to determine that the man was the victim. Yes. But is there anything that sticks out or anything that law enforcement should pay particular attention to or question to figure out what is actually happening here?

SPEAKER_02 21:50

I think first and foremost, you have to be open minded going in. As I was saying before, you can't go in with these preconceived ideas that it's always going to be the man. You have to be open minded.

Language Stereotypes And Media Bias

SPEAKER_02 22:00

And I can tell you something as a police officer responding to emergency calls. You wouldn't believe how many times in for any call, um, with the information I had, when I got there to the scene, it turned out to be very, very different, or it turned out to be the other way around. So, first and foremost, certainly when I was teaching police officers, I always teach them to be open-minded. And they have to go in with what we'd call an investigative mindset. So you've got to investigate. And really, it's a posh way of saying ask a lot of questions. That's what that's really all you're doing. So I think going in there, you've got to separate the parties, separate, you know, the two individuals and speak to them, different officers, and see what truths you can uncover. Now, you don't have any control with what people tell you or whether they tell you the truth. Um, people will lie to protect themselves or they will lie because they're ashamed, lots of reasons. But you do your very best to get the truth. And as an officer, if you have evidence to arrest, then that is a consideration. So what can often happen, you can imagine, in a domestic dispute, is that there will be um some kind of physical altercation, there'll be some kind of fight. And both may end up with injuries. Now I was a police officer a while ago now, so I accept things may have changed, but one really poor lot of advice we got at one point years back was that you arrest the one who caused the more serious injuries, which to me was ridiculous because I studied law and I went on to teach law. And I'm sorry, if two people have caused injuries, then they both legally can be arrested. Yeah, don't just arrest one of them. That is not fair, that is not justice. But believe it or not, that was some of the advice we were given. And where I think that came from was somebody up high, their misguided notion that whoever had caused the more serious injuries must be the abuser, must historically be the abuser. Well, this is rubbish. You and I know in a domestically abusive relationship, one person can be abusing the other repeatedly over a long period of time. And then it could just be one day that person fights back, or they're so desperate they defend themselves, or by sheer fluke, they cause the more serious injury in self-defense. So you really have to be very, very careful about making decisions based solely just on what you're seeing in front of you. You have to get history, you have to ask lots of questions and assess everything you can see in the environment. And officers now, certainly in the UK, are given a lot more guidance about what questions to ask that can indicate certain patterns of behavior and psychology.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

And it's hard because I think as a survivor and facing questions myself, a lot of times, whether it is intentional or not intentional, the questions that are directed at you almost question your believability. And well, did that really happen? Why did you react that way? So it's almost like you're re-victimizing the victim. And that's as a woman. And I did actually interview a man here in the United States, and he went under an alias because I believe he was still in some litigation with his situation. But his wife would physically abuse him. And when he said something, and he went through the military, and when he said something to his own attorney and judge, they both laughed at him and said, You're a man, why didn't you just defend yourself? But again, if he had defended himself physically, then he may have been arrested for physically assaulting her.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yes, absolutely. And maybe he didn't want to hurt her. You know, as much as you can want to defend yourself, you're very aware that when you defend yourself, actually you can end up hurting the other person. So, you know, this is not TV. Um, you know, it just life just doesn't work like that. Uh so it's a very difficult position for a man to be in because he does probably suspect or worry that as soon as he fights back or defends himself, he makes him look, he makes himself look like the abuser.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah. So another thing I wanted to bring up is I will often say when a victim talks about what happened to them for the first time, whether it be contacting law enforcement, when law enforcement arrives, just the way they're questioning or the lack of questioning happening, that dictates what's going to happen to that victim going forward. If the police come and the man is the victim and the law enforcement officers are completely disregarding his concerns or his demeanor, that's going to set the course for in the future. Is he going to say anything to anyone again? Because this time he wasn't believed.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yeah. And I think that's absolutely true in general, whether it's law enforcement you're speaking to, friend, family, HR, um, anyone really, that first time you disclose is so important, isn't it? Because if you get a bad reaction, you're just going to shut down. And why would you ever want to tell anyone ever again? Um, it's very, very difficult. And this is why I think for a lot of people, when they ask me, well, you know, I I have something to say, who should I speak to? I always ask them to, you know, think very carefully about who is the right person. Because as I say, whilst you should be able to guarantee a good and correct response from law enforcement, very sadly you can't. There are some absolutely brilliant officers out there, but sadly there are some who are not, and that's the reality. But I think if you think about people you know, you probably know them better, and you've got a better chance of guaranteeing what sort of response you get. So I tend to say to people, well, think about family, friends, colleagues. Imagine telling them and how would they respond to you? Would they be kind? Would they listen? Would they be sympathetic? And if the answer is yes, then that's the right person to speak with.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yes. And it's sometimes it's very hard. And it's you gave actually a few examples of stories in your book of where men did say something. So there was, I think it was three men that went to high school, maybe went to high school with you that had been abused.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Yeah, they did go to high school with me. I went to a different school, but three men I knew, yeah, yeah, uh friends of the family. Um, and they all met at a reunion um and they discovered that they'd actually all been abused by the same teacher, but they were sort of by this point, gosh, in their, I think, 40s or something. Um so it'd been some time had gone past. Um, but of course, when you're a child, you you know, your abuser will often say all sorts of things to persuade you or threaten you uh not to tell anyone or to convince you that it's okay or that it's normal. And why would you imagine it was happening to anyone else? Because no one is talking, and you don't, I think, as a child. Um, very sadly, adults will abuse um, you know, the fact that you can persuade a child of certain things. So, of course, these poor men never knew that they weren't the only one and it was happening to the others. So I think they found some closure and comfort in speaking with each other. Um, but it's always that difficult thing, isn't it? That it's the tragic irony of life. When we do get to a point where we feel we could say something or take some form of action, sometimes it feels like that moment is gone, uh, really, doesn't it? Because it was a long time ago and what would happen now? And uh yeah, it's mixed emotions.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Yeah, because even even finally finding that courage to say something in their 40s, they could have gotten a reaction of, well, I mean, that was so long ago. Why aren't you over it? Shouldn't you be over it by now?

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Yes. And I think a lot of women who spoke out in me too got that reaction. There's two very negative reactions, which some of them got, which was they must be lying, they're just jumping on the bandwagon. That was one negative reaction. And the other negative reaction was, well, if it was true, surely they would have said something at a time. The very sad truth was this really frustrates me a lot. 33% of female victims in the UK of sexual assault will never tell a single soul as long as they live about what happened to them. No one. Family, friends, nobody. When it comes to male victims, it's twice as high, about 67%. So these poor people live with this inside, festering, you know, for all of their lives,

When The Law Defines Rape

SPEAKER_02 30:30

not feeling able to tell anyone. That's how hard it is. It is not easy for anyone to speak about these things. Uh, my first job after university was working at the Central Criminal Court in London, nicknamed the Old Bailey, very, very sort of important court. And I could really see that pain and that struggle on those victims' faces when they had to give evidence in front of a room full of strangers, staring at them, judging them. I mean, the amount of courage that would take is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yes. And then to I mean, it's hard to talk about what happened to your best friend, but to have to do it in a room full of strangers, like you said, who are looking at you and judging you. And then when you see these stories that hit the news and the reaction, I mean, I I refer back to this a lot because it's huge. The whole Epstein files, yeah. Look at where we are. Where is the justice? Nobody is being held accountable right now. So you have somebody who may have gone through a similar experience, but not at that scale. And you look at, but there's all of these victims who have come forward with their stories against all of these perpetrators, and there's no justice. What is little old me going to do coming forward against, you know, little old Mrs. Smith or whoever it was?

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yeah. And court is a very traumatic experience. Um, and does it bring closure? Not always, sadly. They do things usually for the right reason, not for revenge, as people tend to think. They really don't. Um, but it's an extremely difficult process. And the sad reality is it doesn't change what happened to you. It doesn't take that away. Um, it still involves a lot of self-work and therapy and whatever else involved to get through what happened to you. So a lot of people will weigh that up. They think, well, life is tough enough as it is. It's hard enough getting over this, let alone adding to that by now going to court or speaking out publicly. And then I've got to put up with, you know, nasty trolls online who don't believe me or say other hideous things. Uh, that's a lot to ask anyone to put themselves through, really.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yes. And you actually included a full chapter on the long-term effects of abuse. And it it doesn't necessarily mean you had you were abused by someone when you were five versus you were abused by your partner later in life. These effects are still very similar. And could you talk a little bit about the psychological effects? And you threw in some statistics too. I love I'm a sucker for statistics. I love statistics.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Um I may not be able to bring them a statistics to mind. You might have to help me with that. But um, yeah, certainly the effects. I mean, post-traumatic stress disorder, it's very, very common as an initial response for most victims in the first couple of weeks. Those statistics do go down. Um, only sort of a small percentage will have PTSD for years or decades. But this again is interesting. I think people don't realize how long it can last. If you watch TV or a film, often somebody has one good cry with a therapist, and then they're all magically okay. Very sadly, that doesn't tend to go that way in real life. It can take a long, long time. And PTSD can look like bouts of anxiety, depression, flashbacks, nightmares, all sorts of things. And people don't even necessarily know they have it. Um, for example, with a flashback, people think, again, because they've seen it in movies, oh, flashback means you see what happened to you or you sort of re-experience things. Not necessarily. Sometimes a flashback is almost like a wave of panic, it's a very physical reaction. And you're not necessarily reliving what happened or seeing anything in your mind. It's not necessarily visual. But all of a sudden you can be absolutely flawed by something that triggers you, whether that's a sight, a sound, or a smell or something. Um, and you just can be completely incapacitated. So I think a lot of these things, again, and it's not our fault, they're just so portrayed in a very stereotypical way in the media and films and books, that we don't recognize it when the experience is quite different for us and we don't even know we're going through it necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Yes. And so when you were talking about healing, there was another story that you included about two brothers who were sexually assaulted while they were very small children, and both of them had an amnesia response initially. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Yes, and then one regained their memories um in their early 20s, and the other one never did. Um, and I think the the one brother who did regain their memories is because he was desperately trying to. He knew there was something very wrong, and he could see all the symptoms in himself and he knew what they pointed to, but he had no memories, so he couldn't prove. Well, why I why how can I have PTSD? I I don't can't remember an event. Then the then the memories came back and it all made perfect sense. It all fell into place. But it did take many, many years after that for him to work through all of it. The other brother, that very sadly, although they spoke, and so the other brother was aware of what they had been through, he couldn't remember it and he wasn't ready to, and he didn't want to, and that's fine. I'm a big believer that somebody must be, you know, in power, they must have their own choice, it's their own decision of when to talk and if to talk and who to talk to. They shouldn't be pushed. So he sort of went his own path, but he never really was able to work through his issues as well, I don't think, because he just his brain wasn't ready to remember and wasn't ready to accept. So I think in a way he found it harder to recover, sadly.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

And I think there are a few things to take away from that. One, your mind may forget because it's it's trying to protect you.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

But your body remembers. And there is, you have, like you already mentioned, triggers that you can have these physiologic responses to things and not understand why your body's reacting that way because your brain hasn't caught up yet to what happened.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Yes, exactly. Um, and what's fascinating, I'll never forget. I'm not sure if I put it in the book, but the um the brother whose memories did come back, he said he could remember the day he forgot, which fascinates me. He said he was yeah, he said he was stood there in the lounge. He was very, very young. So this was sort of maybe a year or two after you know the abuse had ended. And he said he could remember the memories like floating almost to the back of his mind. And he said he knew he had a last chance to grab them and stop them from going. And he sat there, and even as a young child, he thought, oh my god, why would I want to do that? Because they'd been hanging over him like a dark cloud for all that time, making him absolutely miserable. And he said, No, they can go. And he let the memories go. But as you say, although it gave him some respite, it all still came through. He still experienced anxiety, depression, nightmares, but he just couldn't make sense of it. So this was again the tragic irony of losing your memory, um, even for a short period of time. It does give

Domestic Abuse Leaving And Policing

SPEAKER_02 37:50

you some respite, some break, but it really doesn't solve the problem, sadly. Um, you still have all of these experiences and all these triggers.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Right. Well, and for him, I wonder if maybe it was actually a benefit, even though he suffered from those effects of it. That many years ago, I don't know that he would have received the well, and actually, based on the mother's reaction to these boys coming forward, um, I can say definitely he wouldn't have received the proper therapy, the proper support to process through all of that. So in that case, maybe that was a better thing.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Yes, I think you're right, absolutely. Um, things are very different nowadays, you know, but it depends which family you're born into, doesn't it? If you've got supportive family who will be there, will listen, be patient with you, let you work through it, give you therapy if you wish to have it, then that's great. But if you're with a family that shuts you down, doesn't believe you, dismisses you, tells you to man up, then it's going to be really awful, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Right. Yes. And so some of the statistics that I I we're going to to another extreme here is when these things happen, especially to men who tend to harbor it more than women. I'm not saying women don't. A lot of women hold on to their trauma as well. But that can have like the psychological effects that you already mentioned, but suicidality is a very big concern. And you had some numbers in based in the UK, and they're high numbers.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

Very high. I mean, men can be sort of three to five times more likely to die by suicide than women. Um and it's the highest killer of men under 35. Uh, and so it's it's absolutely awful. And there's lots of theories behind why that is. But I think sometimes it saddens me when when people almost victim blame say, well, if men just talk to each other like women do, they'd be okay. My answer would be, well, maybe if we provided the sort of safe and supportive environment where they felt they could talk, then maybe they would. So maybe it's not them that's the problem, maybe it's us.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Right. And and again, when you pit the genders against each other, it's women victims are thinking, well, you don't have it as bad as us, or your gender is out to get us. And men just, I don't know. I've I've been on, I've looked into uh some social media groups that are designed to offer support for victims of um domestic abuse and I believe it's uh sexual assault too. And the women groups, there are some hardened women who are very anti-men, but they are more likely trying to be supportive of each other. And there are also women in there who are in same-sex relationships, and it it does seem to be more of a supportive environment. And I've gone into some of these men groups when I was trying to find somebody to come talk to me on the the um podcast, and there's a lot of angry, angry, angry men. And I'm not saying as all male victims are very angry, but there's a lot of pitting gender versus gender. And like I said, it can happen in the women, and I have seen it happen in the women groups as well. It's just perhaps there's more women in the women groups than there are men in, so it's more of a condensed version of what's happening in the male groups. But I think that's I guess circling back to this isn't a man versus woman situation.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

Yeah, and I think that's what's so sad. I understand it. I understand when you're angry and you want to lash out, and it's easier to just blame everybody, isn't it? But I think it's it's awful. I mean, you know, if you're saying all men are bad, that's half the planet. You know, you're talking four billion people, really. You know, let's wake up to this. And it's not fair. You can't just say that because there is a subset of men who are evil and predatory and dangerous, you can't say that all men are. Um, it's not true and it's not helpful. And it's you can't flip it around the other way. You know, you can't just hate all women because some women make false allegations. That's a subset. You can't just say, therefore, all women are evil or liars. Uh, and I think, you know, and then this is the basis of a lot of prejudice and racism, isn't it? It's sweeping judgments, you know, because you don't like one person of particular color, race, ethnicity, culture, you don't like all of them. And it's just ridiculous logic, first and foremost, um, as well as just being hateful and unhelpful.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

I think that there are extremes where, again, women, there's the whole, this is why we choose the bear um story. Have you heard this story? I heard this one. Okay. I I don't know if it's just something that's very specific to the US, this new thing. It's uh I guess there was a question, a survey. I I don't know if it was an official survey, but if a a woman was given a choice, if you were walking through the woods, would you rather come upon a bear or a man? Either one just randomly in the woods.

unknown 43:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

And the majority of women chose the bear. And the reason behind it, and it makes sense to me, is you know that bear is not going to try to be your friends. That bear is going to either try to scare you or eat you. I mean, at minimum, yeah, it's it's going to terrify you. It's not going to come up and give you a hug. Whereas a man can give you the facade of trying to, I'm going to love you, but then turn and hurt you. So it's, I mean, that's the way I interpret it. But I would say that.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

I would say that about any human being. Who would you rather come across in the middle of the woods, a bear or a human being?

unknown 43:59

And I

SPEAKER_02 44:00

I think people vastly underestimate how evil some women can be. There are a lot more female perpetrators out there than people realise or recognize. You know, they just mentioned the cliches like fatal attraction and that's it. And that was a long time ago. Was that the 80s that film?

SPEAKER_00 44:15

I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Yeah, long time ago. So I think people are just not recognizing um the complexity and the danger of human beings. You know, like say just because somebody's big and strong doesn't necessarily mean they're more of a danger to you. A small, light person can stab you with a knife. You don't need physical strength to do that. You know, a very, like you say, a very nice, charming person can defraud you of all of your money. So I think I think that that that question to that scenario could be what would you rather come across a human or a bear? Oh, it's yeah, humans can be far more dangerous in a lot of ways than animals can. Animals can be maybe more predictable, can't they? Um but I think when people are asking questions like that, when they're setting up questions like that, you know what they're aiming at. You know what's under you know, what's underneath that. What are you trying to get from the public with that one? What are you trying to point them towards? What are you really trying to say? And that's where I think it can be damaging. Because what you're trying to say is, oh, yeah, men, all men are dangerous, aren't they? Men are more dangerous than a ferocious bear. And I think, well, how helpful is that conversation? You're not improving the situation, you're not being sympathetic and compassionate with the genders, you're not helping to change things for the better. What you're actually doing is you're stirring the pot. And that's when I think questions like that can bother me. Because some people say, well, it's finding the truth. Well, what we're trying to do is highlight how scared women are. Okay, but what you're actually now doing is you're adding to the fear.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Right. And and I think you're absolutely right. That that entire question was to provoke some sort of intense response to get again, we're pitting everybody against each other. Um, and there is I I brought that up because I want to lead into another thing, but before I do that, when you were saying it can be somebody petite, I did I I uh reviewed the story of Alex Skeel and how he was abused by his wife, and she was very petite, and she severely physically abused him. Yeah, so it it doesn't matter what the stature of of the person is.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Um, but I did want to lead into because something that's again very popular here in the United States. I don't know if you're familiar with Jimmy Fallon, he's a talk show host here. Okay. So he recently interviewed Connor McGregor.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

I saw that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

And so there's a lot of commentary behind that, and women saying, you know, let's cancel Jimmy Fallon because if he's going to, and to be honest, I I do have some agreement with this. I don't think that anybody with that kind of a history should be highlighted in media unless it's a negative highlight. But the comments that I'm seeing are you may not be the offender as a male, but if you are not against them, then you are in support of them. And again, to a degree, I I agree with that. However, I feel like that doesn't just go for the the man versus bear situation. That that applies to us too. As women, if we're not supporting our male survivors, then are we also in turn as bad as the female perpetrators? If we're going to hold men to that same accountability, are we why can't we be thought of the same way?

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Absolutely. I think it's got to be fair and equal. That's exactly it. Um, and I certainly agree. I'm not sure if Jimmy Fallon should be cancelled, but he certainly needs to look at who he's getting on his program. What is that saying? I do think you need to have principles and values. I think that's really important to know where you stand. And what is he saying about what he stands for? It is really concerning. So I definitely understand all the comments there. Um and I'm a big believer in not being a bystander if it doesn't threaten your safety in general. And this is something, again, that I have taught in a lot of my training sessions, not just to police officers. I mean, there's there's an a there's a saying I can't remember, but it's something around all it takes for evil to prosper is for people to stand by and do nothing. Um and I think that's part of what you're saying there. And I think that's important. I think a lot of children who've been abused will say that one parent was abusing them and the other parent knew and did nothing. And for them, that was just as hurtful as the person who is abusing them. So 100%. I mean, as a police officer, I felt that that I was being active, I was never the bystander. I was doing whatever I could to help, to do the right thing, to be the good person. So yeah, it really frustrates me. You know, you look throughout history and such horrendous things have happened because people have allowed it or they've done nothing. Now, I'm never saying that somebody should put themselves in danger. Not at all, not at all. But if you can do something safely to protect or to support or to stand up for what's right, to protect somebody who's struggling to protect themselves, then you absolutely should.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

I agree. And I actually had a very similar conversation. I had a man on to talk about not at not male victims, but as far as men speaking up for the female counterparts, the female victims, and how important it is for men to support women. And part of the conversation went into do you step in and do you intervene? And even as a as a man, if we're going to again stereotype as men are more physically capable of defending themselves, even then, you should not necessarily put yourself in harm's way. If you are witnessing something happen at a restaurant, you can talk to the wait staff or the owner or the manager. You can contact law enforcement if you're in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 50:05

I think I never forget somebody telling me about their experience as a child. They had quite an abusive father. It's not in the book, but they told me how they were in a public place, I think it was a bowling alley, and the father was screaming and shouting and berating them. So much so the whole bowling alley stopped and turned and looked. And they were a small child, they were seven or eight years old at the time. And they were there just shaking, you know, couldn't even cry. They were just so horrified by their father, you know, doing this. And then he sort of dragged them off to the bowling, you know, to sort of make them do it right. But nobody did anything. And that

Disclosure PTSD Memory And Suicide Risk

SPEAKER_02 50:40

really stuck with this person. That as a child, they were looking thinking, well, no one's doing anything. So maybe I deserve this, or maybe this is okay, or no one will ever save me, no one will ever help me. And that's awful because when you're a child, it's very difficult to stand up for yourself or save yourself against a much more powerful aggressor, whether that's somebody in authority or parent or somebody else. And you need somebody to save you. You need somebody to step in and help. And when nobody does anything, but they can see what's going on, it's really, really damaging, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Yes, it absolutely is. So there's there's that inaction. And then there's also a response. I had, I don't know if he's still the chairman, but uh Mark Brooks was the chairman. You mentioned Mankind Initiative in your book. And I I had him on the podcast back in 2023. And it was a very interesting, it was actually a very lengthy interview. And so hopefully people listened to the whole thing. There was a lot of really good information in there. But one uh advertisement that they had come up with was, I thought, so telling. What they did is they had a male and female couple walking through the town. And in one scenario, the man is screaming at the woman. I don't know if there was actual any, there was physical posturing, but I don't know if he grabbed her or not. But it was definitely him in control of her screaming and yelling. And people intervened. People either came up physically and said to back off or they yelled from wherever they were. They repeated that same scenario, same couple. This time the female was screaming at the male and panning around, you see people laughing at the situation. So you have the damaging of nobody's doing anything, but then you have something I think that is even more damaging of looking around and being mocked because of the situation.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I've either seen that video or one identical to it, so I can picture exactly what you're describing. Um, yeah, and it's absolutely awful, isn't it, that this man is being laughed at. And I think if it was not that video, it was another one, where women were almost cheering her on. Yes, yeah, which is awful. And this is an example I bring up a lot of the time. Think how many films or TV programs you've seen where a woman slaps a man around the face because she doesn't like something he's said or done. And he stands there and takes it. And as the audience were probably meant to be on her side. Yeah, exactly. You tell him now, flip that. Imagine he slapped her around the face, our reaction as the audience would be completely different. Now, that again is not fair. If it's not okay for a man to slap a woman, it is not okay for a woman to slap a man. And we really shouldn't be having these different reactions.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Right. And I've seen not maybe necessarily that exact scenario, but I've seen different clips of something similar where a female has a physical reaction to a male and it's just that little clip. And reading the comments, you'll have mixed comments. You'll have people saying she should not have done that, or he should have defended himself, or people will say, I want to know what the context was. Like, what did he do for her to react that way? But if you flip it and it's a man slapping a woman, nobody cares about what the context was, what happened before. I won't say again, I won't say no one because you will have a few people asking, and the majority of it is men saying, Well, what did she do for him to slap her? And to be honest, there's I don't think there's any scenario where either gender should be just slapping the other unless it's some sort of defense, self-defense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

I mean, I find it interesting as a police officer, as a female police officer, uh, male suspects um would often literally tell me, Well, I can't hit you, you're a woman. And I think, well, that's great for me. I'm not gonna get hit today. But the other part of me, strangely in in a silly way, was a bit offended. Like, well, hang on. It's all right to hit my collie, but I'm not good enough for you to hit, you know, and again, it's not fair. Why should my male colleague get punched? You know, as okay to hit him, but it's not okay to hit me. That's just not right. It's not right. No, it's not okay to hit anyone, full stop. Um, and I think growing up watching films where you could see people, you know, on the Titanic going, women and children first. Now, children, absolutely, because children don't have the coping skills, the knowledge, the strength necessarily to take care of themselves. But I'm sorry, why women first? Why not men? You know, that disparity, that contradiction, that hypocrisy, I don't like at all. Um, so I don't like it when you disempower women, you make them look like you know, vulnerable and incompetent and all that sort of stuff. You probably look like you're being chivalrous and noble, but no, I'm sorry. Let's treat people fairly and equally, not based on their gender.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

You know, that's funny because I actually just had this conversation with my daughter. I don't know what led us to have the conversation of women and children first. But she was like, oh, good, mom, you would be saved too. And I said, to be honest, yes, I that that's the whole concept behind it. But I always thought it was to preserve our species. Like if we are the end of the world, children are going to carry on. Women can birth more humans, obviously. We need a male counterpart to do that. But I told her, I said, if you are going to take that reasoning, I would not be one that's put on the boat to be saved. And she's like, why? And I go, I'm I'm almost like I'm 49, I'll be 50 next year. So like I'm I'm not going to be having babies. I think maybe I still could. I it probably would kill me if I did. But um the whole it has to be equal, right? Like, don't you shouldn't be if that's our idea, then the 80-year-old women, yeah, God bless them, they they should not be put on the boat. Yeah. If we're talking about preserving our humanity.

SPEAKER_02 56:48

No, exactly. And again, it's just not fair. And I think sometimes we're just not recognizing skills, are we? I mean, again, going back to me as a police officer, sometimes I think the more old-fashioned male colleagues would sort of push me aside if they were going in through the door, we're going first and being strong, you know, we're going first into the situation. Because all they were thinking about is one skill, which is sort of brute force strength that might be needed. And I'd be thinking, well, hang on. How about with some communication skills? Maybe this person could be talked down, calmed down. Who's the best on the team at that? Might be me, might be a male colleague. But let's just not always think about the first and best and only solution is about strength, so therefore it has to be men. So that's again sometimes where we really just um we we look at men and women as just two-dimensional characters and and we just separate these skills and I think it really needs modernizing sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Oh, I agree. And I feel like a lot of society feels that we are modernizing things by recognizing the differences. I don't know, it it can go either way. It's great that we're more aware of things, but then sometimes and giving women more strength, then we can be in more positions now, and it's not as, you know, foreign of a thought for women to hold positions of power. However, we have to we have to widen that. And it's not just, well, women can be a CEO. We have to recognize women can be abusers at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Yes. And again, we need to sort of widen the net about what men can be, which I think we haven't done. We're getting more women, like you say, in varied positions. And we're seeing them in different ways, in different lights that we didn't see before. I don't think we've come as far with men. I think it's still unusual to see um a men in a parent group with toddlers. It's usually, again, mostly mums, mostly women. Um, I think again, when it comes to any sort of area of vulnerability, we're not used to seeing sort of men at the forefront, um, you know, and we're sort of less comfortable with men when they're vulnerable or crying or or, you know, um injured or needing support. So I think um women have made a lot of progress. We can do and be a lot more things, but I think men have been sort of left behind. No one has invested in the variety of things that they can be.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

You are so right on that. So what what can women specifically do to support men who are I statistically, probably the majority of men have been a victim of something, either whether it be full domestic abuse or sexual assault at whatever age in their life? What can women do to support men? We talk so much about men speaking out for women victims. What can women do to help carry our brother survivors?

SPEAKER_02 59:45

I think for someone to speak out, you have to be able to make a good guess at how they're gonna react. Um, and I think maybe the reason that so many men have spoken to me in in my training sessions uh or and have been there is because they they're looking at me and they're listening to me thinking, wow, she she's gonna be nice to me. She's gonna respect me, she's gonna believe me if I say something. Because she's talking about other men. So I've already demonstrated the knowledge and the sympathy I have for male victims. So then that's why I keep getting more and more and more talking to me. So I think sometimes as a man, I'd be listening to what you're saying and what you're watching and how you're acting. So if if if I was a man in a household, I'd think, well, what's your response to that film or that movie or that scene or that book or that article in the paper or that story online? And I'd be looking and listening very carefully. And if you're open and fair and respectful and sympathetic, then I think, okay, this is a person I can share with. This is a person I can speak to. But if they watch you and they see that your attitudes are, you know, anti-male or a bit sexist or a bit old-fashioned or a bit unsympathetic, why why would I, why would I share? Why would I speak out? So be be conscious of the fact that people are looking and listening to what you're saying, what you're doing, and what you're posting. Um, and then they're also watching how you parent, what are you teaching your children, how you're responding to what they've experienced at school. So I think it's all of this that you know, I think we all do that, don't we? We examine the people around us and their behavior and their attitudes, and we think, could I talk to them?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:22

And what about men? Because I, with again, starting this podcast, I've talked to quite a few friends, and sometimes they they misunderstand the podcast and they say, Oh, Ingrid has a podcast on supporting women. And absolutely I support women, but I also support men. And I have said that I will correct them of like, no, it's not a podcast on just it's not a feminism podcast, it's not just about women, it's actually specifically about victims and survivors. And I'll say men can be victims and survivors. And it's like, ugh, well, there's something wrong with them then. And that's the response I get from the men I speak to. And it's very frustrating because I think with their closed-mindedness, they're probably friends of theirs or will never be able to speak to them about what happened.

How Women And Men Can Help

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Because I I bet I actually asked one of them straightforward, how many people do you know have been raped? How many people in your personal life, in your circle, personal circle, do you know have been raped? And he's he said, probably two. And I was like, nah. Because I can tell you right now that we have like five mutual acquaintances that have been raped. And so, what can either we as women do to help our men understand that men can be victims and survivors? And who knows? Maybe some of these men that have been so adamant that no, they can't be victims or survivors, they actually may be a survivor themselves that hasn't recognized what's happened to them as some sort of an assault.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

Yeah. I think you have to keep going, you have to keep talking. I mean, it was amazing how much I I learned and sympathized with men once I was working with so many of them. Um, the Metropolitan Police is predominantly 75% male. I was um 27 when I joined. And although I'd had men in my life, brother and a father and friends, etc., I really felt like I learned and understood a lot more about them as I worked with them and as I talk with them, share them, and then as I work with victims. And then, of course, in our relationships, you know, being married, my husband and I, we talk a lot and I see the world through his point of view and through his eyes. And then he does the same with me. I tell him about all of my experiences and my life as a woman, and he sees me go through things, and so we learn more about each other's experience. And like you say, I think sometimes you just keep talking and keep sharing. And sometimes if somebody hears something often enough, they might start to recognize actually there's some truth in this. Um, I think some people will never be convinced and you have to think, well, should I choose my battles? Uh I often, the way I see it, I think there's a group of people who are with you who believe have the same values and opinions. There's a group of people who absolutely don't and never will, but there's a very large group in the middle who I think if you spend enough time with them and you talk to them and you explain and you show them, then they will see what you mean and what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

Yeah, I agree. So, Liana, if people want to get your book, if they want to follow along with you and see what you're up to or connect with you somehow, do you want to share some links? And I'll put those in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

Yeah, so I've got my website, Lucene Training. Uh, you can also find me on Instagram and YouTube where I share little videos, and my book you can find on Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

Perfect. And those will all be in the show notes. And so finally, in closing, do you have any words of wisdom or encouragement that you would specifically like to leave with listeners today?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

Uh, I think it's I know it's a cliche, but I think certainly for male victims, just to know that you know you're not alone. Uh, there is a whole community out there, even if you can't connect with them just yet. Uh, they are there. Um, and first and foremost, I I always say this: if you're not able to speak to anyone else, it's about speaking to yourself. And that sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? A bit naugh. But I often tell people to go find a room where no one can see you or hear you and to say what happened to you out loud. Because this is the weird thing with terrible experience and trauma. We tend to go over and over and over in our head a million times. So we keep thinking and feeling like we've said it over and over, but we actually haven't. We've never actually said the words out loud. And if it's too difficult to say them, then type on your phone or write it down and just look at those words because I think you need to validate your own feelings and your own truth first before you're able to share it with anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:05

Okay. Liana, thank you so much. Again, the book is Men Ignored. So thank you for the book.

Closing And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

Thank you for your time and all of the work that you have been doing and continue to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

Thank you very much. It's been really lovely to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

Thank you again, Liana, for joining me today. And thank you, Warriors, for listening. You can find the links Liana was referring to as well as her one in three profile in the show notes. I will be back next week with another episode for you. Until then, stay strong. And wherever you are in your journey, always remember you are not alone. Find more information, register as a guest, or leave a review by going to the website one and threepodcast.com. That's the number one the number three podcast.com. Follow one in three on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at one and three podcasts. To help me out, please remember to rate review and subscribe. One and three is a.5 Panoy production. Music written and performed by Tim Crow.