WEBVTT
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Hi Warriors, welcome to 1 in 3.
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I'm your host, ingrid.
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Narcissist, Narcissistic personality disorder, gaslighting these are all terms that everyone seems to be using today and, like I said, it's getting thrown around a lot, and sometimes probably accurately.
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Most of the time, though, probably not.
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So what does it mean?
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Is it important to know what it means?
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How do you navigate it?
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What do you do if you've been exposed to it?
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These are all things that are important to know, because if you are in a relationship where you are being abused by a narcissist, it can leave some lasting scars, and being gaslit can leave you doubting your reality for years.
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So what do we do?
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Well, luckily for me and for my friends and for you, I have Nova Gibson.
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The author of Fake Love and the podcast host of Fake Love and Flying Monkeys, is joining me today to actually go over some of this terminology, and she also explains some commonalities in narcissists.
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So key things to look out for, key things to pay attention to and key things to clue you in to get the heck out.
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So, without further ado, here is Nova.
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Hi, nova, thank you so much for joining me.
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Welcome.
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My absolute pleasure.
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Ingrid, Thank you for having me on your podcast.
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I'm really excited to talk with you today.
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I'm very, very excited.
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Narcissism obviously is a kind of a hot topic, like everybody's using the word now, and it definitely coincides with domestic violence.
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I do feel that it's probably overused.
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I did, I did buy your book.
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I have started reading it.
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My plan was to have it done by now but I have, you know, three kids and a job and they're on summer break and so it's the time to read is pretty slim, but I have started reading it.
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I love it.
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It's I feel like I feel like you've been following me around and just writing down my story.
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That you're, you're finding it, um, validating, um, and I get told that a lot, ingrid, it's like you're a fly on my wall.
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Yes, in my lounge room when that was happening.
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Right, I hear that a lot.
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Well, okay.
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So before we get into it, do you want to just give a quick background of you know?
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Obviously you authored a book, but just kind of tell what else you're doing and how you got to do what you're doing you're doing and how you got to do what you're doing.
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Yeah, absolutely so.
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I'm a survivor of narcissistic abuse as well and after my experience, which is a long time ago, I couldn't find any support, anyone who really got it and I make this really clear in my book but the psychologists and that, uh, they were lovely, but they just didn't get it.
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Um, and I felt like I was telling them what was going on and I felt patronized.
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Um, so, anyway, to to cut to the chase.
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After much self-healing, doing what everyone else does.
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Turning to online forums, talking to other survivors, I managed to heal my own trauma, and that took time.
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But, knowing there was very little help out there for survivors and I was already a therapist, I was already a counsellor I made it my mission to help other people and, as I said, there was a long time ago that that happened to me, but that's all I do now and that's all I've done, since I only talk to victims and survivors of narcissistic abuse and hence my desire to put it all on paper finally got round to it, which culminated in my book Fake Love, which has just blown me away in becoming the number one bestselling practical self-help book in Australia in 2023, when it was released.
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It's available worldwide by Harper Collins.
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Yeah, so that's what I do at the moment.
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I speak to people all over the world online therapy and I also am a public speaker where I educate professionals around understanding the dynamic of this abuse.
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That's huge and I'm sure you're busy with only doing narcissistic abuse because there's so much, it's everywhere.
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I think you mentioned that it's not as diagnosed as it should be because obviously narcissists are not going to get treatment, they're not seeking out treatment themselves.
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But do you feel that the majority of abusers at least have narcissistic traits?
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Oh, absolutely.
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It's about looking at consistent patterns of behaviour over space and time.
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Any victim of domestic violence will tell you these are not isolated incidents.
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So I'm a firm believer that someone who is abusing someone in a domestic violence relationship a narcissistic abuse is domestic violence.
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Coercive control is narcissistic because of the pattern of behavior, the cycle, the abuse, then the love-bombing, and the abuser becomes the only one who can heal the wound that they created.
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So the victim goes back and the cycle continues.
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That's a narcissistic cycle.
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And I have so many questions and I'm trying to organize my thoughts into like a linear form, so it makes sense.
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So, beginning in a relationship, the love bombing is that a conscious thing that they're doing?
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Is it conscious that they're trying to reel you in by being absolutely over the top?
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Yes, they know exactly what they're doing.
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They've got to be bigger and better and grander in everything they do, and that means being better than everyone else, being that person who woos you at the beginning of the relationship.
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So they are over the top.
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They've got to be better, and that includes when they're grooming you, when they're hooking you in.
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Now do they think inside their head I'm going to be over the top and I'm going to love bomb this person?
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I don't think those thoughts are going through their head, but are they intentionally giving you what you are basically telling them that you need, you want, and are they picking up on those little bits of data to use against you later on?
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Yes, they know exactly what they're doing.
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That's so creepy, okay.
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And then you mentioned once they lure you in, they're wearing this mask and like, okay, I did not get too far in this book, but that was something that I always said about my abuser is I felt that it wasn't necessarily mask.
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I felt like he put on this whole bodysuit, that he was just this other entity and he's wearing this body suit, and then he popped out of it and he couldn't get back into it when we were together.
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But you mentioned something similar to that, like this mask, and then the mask starts to come off because they can't contain it.
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Yeah, so that's an interesting analogy.
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He was wearing this bodysuit and he couldn't get back into it.
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The bodysuit was sorry.
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The person who came out of the bodysuit was who he really was.
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The bodysuit never existed in real terms because that person they pretend to be is an illusion.
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That's the person who love, bombs you.
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So they know they're not that person.
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They know they're not that nice, kind person who makes it all about you.
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This is where the intentionality comes in.
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They're just waiting for you to be hooked and they have this innate ability to know exactly when they can, as you said, get that heavy bodysuit off, kick back, relax and it'll be all about them.
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So they never he to say he couldn't get back into it.
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It's more, why would he?
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That that's.
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It takes a lot of work and effort to love bomb someone and they're all about the end game, which is for you to make it all about them.
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Okay, that makes sense, and then so, but then once Okay that makes sense.
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But then, once you start recognizing that, the inside part, the costumes coming off and you start seeing that part, that's when things kind of really start.
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Great time for the narcissist.
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The narcissist is in control.
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They're in control from the beginning and they have obviously an advantage because they know what they're doing.
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You don't know what they're doing.
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You're in a war and you don't know that you are, and you certainly don't know the rules're doing.
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You're in a war and you don't know that you are and you certainly don't know the rules of engagement.
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So they're always in control.
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It's set in the stars.
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Basically, the second you meet them, the ending is inevitable.
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The cycle is inevitable.
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It has to be over the top to begin with so they can hook you in really, really fast.
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And then, of course, it's got to be all about them after that.
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And how confusing for you, how confusing for the victim to be put on this pedestal.
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That's why, again, it it's over the top and then it comes to a screeching halt and you're wondering where your princess, your princess, what did I do wrong?
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And of course that's when the devaluation starts.
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Yeah, okay, so then talk about that part, the devaluation part.
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What?
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happens.
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The devaluation is basically when the love bombing finishes, the idolization phase finishes and then the devaluation stage starts.
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So you will be confused, so you will have no self-worth, no self-esteem.
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They will constantly have you in a state of confusion and you will be wondering what happened to that person, that person that doesn't exist.
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They know that.
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So they will enjoy you chasing the feeling you got and they'll throw out some breadcrumbs.
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So your pain, your reactions, gives them narcissistic supply.
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So the devaluation is.
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It's about having you just constantly confused and then feeding off your reactions and, of course, lowering your self-esteem through the constant gaslighting.
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You don't trust yourself and all these strategies they incorporate into the devaluation makes you easier to control and manipulate and become trauma-bonded to them, which means hopefully in their mind, they'll feed off you in terms of narcissistic supply forever.
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Now I had not heard of narcissistic supply before and I always thought again.
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I was trying to think of things of my brain is very active and imaginary, but when I would think of my ex, I thought of a parasite that he was just sucking, you know, whatever he needed out of me and then moving on to the next and just sucking, and it wouldn't even necessarily be a romantic relationship that he would move to.
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Great analogy, Ingrid, and maybe you haven't got that far in my book yet, but actually use that.
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I describe the narcissist as being like I haven't got the page in front of me but like a flea, you know, a leech.
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A flea jumps onto a dog, sucks all the as does a leech, sucks all the blood out, I guess, and when it's full, jumps off and finds another host.
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And that's what narcissists do they drain you of everything that was amazing about you, everything they said they loved in the beginning, to hook you in.
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They then set about destroying, because it's those things that make them feel inferior and they have to be the one who's worshipped in this relationship.
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So, yes, they suck you dry through their need, their insatiable need, for narcissistic supply, and then they go off and find another host and it's like you never existed.
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Yes, and that was something that I've wondered.
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And I have other friends who have had, you know, similar relationships and have wondered like, okay, well, he looks happy with his new partner.
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So was it just me?
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And you know, I think after years of gaslighting, you start to question like, well, maybe I was the one who was bringing on this behavior, because things look good now with this new person.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Well, remember I said that that's the goal of narcissistic abuse the devaluation.
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To have you confused.
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This doesn't make sense.
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Why are they treating me this way?
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So gaslighting distorts your reality.
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Continual gaslighting and I think this has become a bit of a buzzword too.
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Unfortunately, people don't understand the true meaning of it.
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It's like brainwashing over time.
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You do not trust yourself, you second guess everything and you're conditioned to do that.
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So when you see them with that new target and they've just moved on, it's just another Tuesday for them and for you.
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Your whole world's been shattered.
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You're like a crumpled hip on the floor.
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You're devastated, angry.
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But if you think back to the start of your relationship, you would have been the same.
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It would have been, you know, amazing in the beginning.
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So all you are seeing is if you look and I strongly advise not to look simply because you victims have got a normal range of emotions, so you're never going to see anything that makes you feel good and they're basically putting propaganda out there to the world and they want you to see them with the new soulmate because they know how much it'll hurt you.
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That's a goal, and also to hook in the new soulmate.
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But yeah, you've just got to think back to the beginning of your relationship.
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If you look, you are simply seeing the next target being love-bombed and your ex the narcissist putting out propaganda online to hurt you, oh, and to manipulate everyone else's perceptions.
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Look, I'm so happy and it's like she's a mess.
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So it must have been her.
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That was the problem, right.
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Yes, and I remember when, you know, the two of us had just started our relationship, he was talking horribly about the woman that he was with before me and she cheated on me and she did this.
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And you know what?
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She's messaging me and she wants me back and she's sending me these pictures and she's saying all these terrible things about you.
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Do you want her number so you can message her?
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And I was like, no, well, I think I think he's classic yes, yes, triumulation, triumulation.
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when they bring a third party into the relationship, they want to pit people against each other, and that scenario I go into a lot of detail in my book about that scenario.
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So they've got the crazy ex, which you will be.
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Now you will be the crazy ex.
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I am yes.
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Please do not ex, which you will be.
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Now you will be the crazy.
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I am yes.
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So he's got the crazy ex and he, he brings her up to you to make you think that, oh, the poor darling, look, he had an absolute lunatic for for an ex.
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So it cements your relationship because you feels sorry for him.
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You also don't want to be like her.
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So you're the amazing girlfriend because he had such a bad one before and and when he starts to devalue you, which is inevitable, then they start singing the praises of the ex who they once purported to hate.
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So that makes you try harder to please them, because you don't want to be beaten by her.
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And he's, he's, even if you two don't know about it, it's.
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He's put himself at the top of the triangle in and he appears to be this wanted commodity and he's manufactured a situation, this triangulation, where two women are vying it out for him and he's got you the new soulmate, trying harder to please him.
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That's so interesting because I hate it.
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I never met this woman.
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I don't know that if I walked past her in the street, if I would even recognize her, but I hated her when we first started our relationship because of all these horrible things that he said about her.
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It's crazy making and what he did was classic, but just the manipulation.
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Because when he and I'm just going to say the narcissist, because so many of them do this when he's going Ingrid, here's her number, you can message her if you like to a victim, they think, well, like number one, he really trusts me to do this.
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So, subconsciously, this is actually strengthening your attachment to him because he really trusts me.
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But you either, some victims will do it, but most won't, I think, and you didn't want to.
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But he would have known you, he would have known you, he would have known your vulnerabilities, your your little idiosyncrasies.
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But he's appeared to be this person who's just an open book, and that strengthens the bond with you.
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And and he's also introduced a crazy ex to create future drama.
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Yes, yes, oh my gosh.
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So what are some other tactics that are really common with narcissists?
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In terms of what, devaluing or sucking you back in, or you know, maybe sucking you back in, because I know that there are times where you're like, let me get out of here, this is wild, and then you go back.
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Yeah.
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So when they suck you back in, we call that hoovering, so hoover the term is coined from the hoover vacuum cleaner it's meaning to suck you back in.
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Now.
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Narcissists discard you like yesterday's trash in the most horrific way, but the victim and I won't get into too much detail in this episode about it.
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But the victim becomes trauma bonded to them, which is an addiction.
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They're addicted to the chemical cocktail going through their body, walking on eggshells all the time and the rock bottom lows, followed by massive highs in the beginning and then just perceived highs.
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So they become addicted.
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So when they're discarded, many victims are sucked back in simply because they want relief.
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They don't know this.
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They think they love this person, but it's really to end the withdrawal from the person they've become addicted to, trauma bonded to.
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But the narcissist is very, very manipulative and experienced in this.
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So they want to come back.
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They don't want you to go away and heal.
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They've got to be inside your head forever.
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So they'll come back with a few breadcrumbs of the love bombing stage to hook you back in, just to discard you again and the next time will always be more horrific.
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The next time will always be more horrific.
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Or if it looks like they think you're happy or just moving on.
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They don't want you to forget about them, so they may just call out of the blue like nothing's happened, Like they didn't just shatter your heart and move on with 10 new soulmates after you.
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They forgot something, they left it at your house to get back inside your head, or they successful so much of the time if the person, the victim, doesn't understand what's going on.
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But narcissists will hoover just for the fun of it and to make sure you never forget about them.
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Well, and of course I have friends that have children with their abusers, so then it's like they're eternally stuck with them and despite the need to co-parent for whatever duration For you know, whatever duration it's almost like these men are still deliberately attacking even though, like in both situations, you know the two exes are both remarried and they're both in different relationships.
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But it's almost like the narcissistic one is still doing all of these tactics just to continue to disrupt their lives.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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One of the narcissist's favorite gaslighting lines is I hate drama.
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And yet drama follows them everywhere.
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Because it's not true.
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They want you to believe that, but they're lost without drama, that they can't stand being alone and they can't stand harmony, peace, quiet.
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So there's got to be.
00:27:19.800 --> 00:27:20.743
If there's none going on, they will create it.
00:27:20.743 --> 00:27:23.933
They're very, very anxious and uneasy when there's peace and harmony.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:40.109
So what a great way to create drama than to always be nitpicking and just disrupting the life of their ex.
00:27:40.109 --> 00:27:48.165
They share children with um and like speaking about triangulation just before.
00:27:48.165 --> 00:27:51.093
Uh, that gives them a huge platform.
00:27:51.093 --> 00:28:16.019
They've got an ex they share children with and they can uh make the the new target, the new partner, feel very, very insecure because they're always talking to their ex and then it becomes loose-loose for them because they're accused of being selfish, because they share children with this woman.
00:28:16.019 --> 00:28:33.502
And yet the new partner is being set up to feel insecure because the contact, the communication with the ex is not healthy I mean, all these things would have been so great to know ages ago.
00:28:33.843 --> 00:28:37.009
Um, so we both mentioned.
00:28:37.009 --> 00:28:40.535
So narcissism and gaslighting are two common buzzwords.
00:28:40.535 --> 00:28:45.971
Would you mind just explaining exactly what each of those are so that we understand?
00:28:45.971 --> 00:28:50.954
You know, narcissism isn't taking you to a different coffee shop than you asked for.
00:28:50.974 --> 00:28:52.279
Yeah.
00:28:53.063 --> 00:28:53.868
There's more to it.
00:28:54.958 --> 00:28:55.160
Yeah.
00:28:55.160 --> 00:29:01.212
So the word narcissist, yes, it has unfortunately become a buzzword.
00:29:01.212 --> 00:29:10.605
If someone's you know, a bit unpleasant, let me just put it that way oh, he's a narcissist.
00:29:10.605 --> 00:29:15.445
And people will just say you know, they're having an argument with someone, oh, that's because they're a narcissist.
00:29:15.445 --> 00:29:32.920
And it's only people who truly don't understand exactly the destruction and the insidious, predictable behaviours that are so textbook from relationship to relationship.
00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:36.559
It's only those people who will use it out of context.
00:29:36.819 --> 00:29:44.294
So it's a narcissist or NPD narcissistic personality disorder.
00:29:44.294 --> 00:29:48.846
It's a label, it's a diagnosis.
00:29:48.846 --> 00:30:04.534
But a diagnosis is a label that we give to a set of symptoms or set of traits, simply so we can apply a treatment Like so you want to give something a label so you know how to treat it.
00:30:04.534 --> 00:30:11.740
But of course, you're never going to get that diagnosis, or very rarely with a narcissist.
00:30:11.740 --> 00:30:26.355
But I guess, just to put it in a nutshell, a narcissist is someone who derives on attention.
00:30:26.355 --> 00:30:30.963
They need attention, they need to have their ego struck.
00:30:31.044 --> 00:30:31.684
All the time.
00:30:31.684 --> 00:30:57.503
They think they're better than everyone else, everyone else, they're envious of everyone else who has something that they think they don't deserve, and they also think everyone is envious of them and basically they have this grandiose view of themselves.
00:30:57.503 --> 00:31:03.034
They're special, and anyone who doesn't recognize that that's because there's something wrong with them.
00:31:03.034 --> 00:31:06.127
They lack empathy.
00:31:06.127 --> 00:31:13.554
They lack empathy and they engage in exploitative behaviors.
00:31:13.554 --> 00:31:23.372
And because they have no empathy, they're able to exploit with absolutely no qualms.
00:31:23.372 --> 00:31:33.685
It doesn't affect them, and if you're hurt because of the way they treat you or whatever they do to you, they justify it.
