82-Breaking the Narcissistic Cycle: A Therapist's Perspective with Darren Elliott

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Hi Warriors, welcome to 1 in 3.

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I'm your host, ingrid.

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Guess what?

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Yeah, today we are diving into another episode on narcissism.

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Honestly, I don't think I could cover this topic too much, but hey, if you think I need to chill, you seriously have to let me know.

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This one's a little bit different, though, dare.

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I say fun.

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I know it doesn't make sense, but hang tight, you'll get it soon.

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Today I'm joined by Darren Elliott, and he shares his unique take on narcissism.

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Let's get into it, hi, darren.

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Thank you for joining me today.

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This is one of my favorite topics to discuss, not one of my favorite things to have experienced, but I'm glad you have decided to come on today.

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Thank you, Ingrid.

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I think we're going to make an unusual episode, making narcissism actually fun.

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It's not really a fun topic, but it's such a passion and there's so much to learn from, and it is really something that impacts us all, as you know.

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Yeah, definitely.

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So before we jump into the whole guts of the conversation, could you give a background on yourself?

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Yeah, sure, so I am, and in fact, while I'm giving my background, if I can go a little longer, people can identify with what's happening there too.

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You know I grew up in a lovely Christian family and our family story was we were a perfect, happy Christian family, all happy and healthy and great, Until one day my brother, who was 13 when I was 12, accidentally shot himself in the head with a gun, and it was an accident.

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We're diving, deep diving.

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Yeah, we're just going to jump right on in.

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And then thereafter the family story changed to being we were the perfect, happy family.

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And then that happened to Mark and then everything went off the rails.

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Well, I remember being a depressed kid before my brother accidentally shot himself in the head.

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I remember him being an angry kid before that happened.

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I don't think he did it on purpose.

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I do think he did it by accident.

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But the perfect family story is something that's extremely common in narcissistic families, where there's a a family narrative and we're all sort of fighting to keep that narrative alive and we don't even realize we're doing it.

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So narcissism tends to be invisible if you're living in the middle of it and my background, for me, it was invisible until I was middle-aged and I was being abused for the last time in my relationships and like, oh my, what has just happened?

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It was the end of a relationship that had just destroyed me, and the end of the relationship looked like an off switch because we were like loving and romantic and wonderful.

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And then we had a conversation and then we were done.

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We lived together, we had dreams together.

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It was like, but there was a talk about do you want to buy a house in this city?

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And I was like no, not really, and it wasn't even a heated discussion, it was just like and then the next day I overhear that he is and we're done.

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And it was just like we were just suddenly done.

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It was not hard for them to go from 100 to zero.

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It devastated me.

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I didn't understand what was happening.

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It ripped my guts out.

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I didn't have an off switch.

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I didn't understand at all what was happening.

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But narcissism tends to have a split.

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But the point is I grew up in a family system.

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I did not recognize it, I did not see it until mid-40s when this happened.

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And then the pain of it and the therapist not understanding what was happening.

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Again and again, and again.

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And in my own family we all ended up in therapy.

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But the therapist didn't help.

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They didn't understand what was happening.

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This was really, really not understood 10 years ago and it's just sort of understood now.

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So I ended up in therapy school, just to save myself, could you say.

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Once I recognized that what I was dealing with was narcissistic abuse, I still didn't see it in my own family system.

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I just recognized it happened to me in my relationship.

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So I started this five-year psychotherapy program and when we got to the point that we could work with clients.

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I started working with narcissists because it was my passion and as soon as I could get clients on Psychology.

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Today, I started working with narcissistic clients because they couldn't find anyone to work with them, or even willing to work with them, and I was like well, I'm a student therapist, let's see what we can do.

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They were willing to do that.

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They're almost never aware, as you know.

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So that's the thing.

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It only happens when they're about to lose everything.

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So they have a great wife and they have beautiful kids and they have such a great life, but none of their family like them.

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Their wife has given them the last heave-ho therapy or we're done, and then they come in for therapy and usually the partners found me, not them.

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That makes sense and it really is.

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They've been pushed and, pushed, and pushed and they come in thinking, well, apparently she thinks something's wrong with me and if I'm not here with you I have to leave.

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So we start there.

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Some people come in thinking they're a narcissist and they're not.

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Couples come in not knowing that one of them is.

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That happens too.

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I'm watching the volley and I was like, oh dear, oh dear.

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I watched the ball go over and then the narcissist twists the ball and then serves it back and it looks like it's not even the same ball.

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And then the not-narcissist serves it back and they twist it again and send it back and I'm like, okay, now, traditional therapy does not work for this.

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It has not been successful because traditional therapy is holding everything in neutrality.

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Oh, a bunch of miscommunications.

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Oh, it's just a misunderstanding.

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They often keep them together and keep the abuse going because the narcissist is sort of playing the same game with them that they're playing with their partner.

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When I start working with someone who's suffering from narcissism, the first thing I need to do is guess what's happening inside for them.

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So I start predicting.

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When I said that, did you feel like this?

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I did Right.

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How do you do that?

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Okay, yeah, you got me hooked.

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I'm in for this.

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Because they have a split, and that's what's going so very wrong.

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And when I mean a split, well, firstly, let's get into narcissism real quick, because it's a word that's thrown around like candy and it's misused as an insult mostly.

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Yes, you're right.

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Firstly, we all have narcissism.

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So it's not something we have or don't have, it's something we all do have.

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So it's not something we have or don't have, it's something we all do have.

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But secondly, it's a process that Freud was using the term narcissism to describe childhood processes, childish processes, in fact, that we're meant to grow out of.

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And the thing is so during childhood, where thousands of neuropathways are being created every single day and we're getting imprinted.

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By the way, you know, we come out just with our little eyes and nose and ears and all we know is what's going on around us.

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And the people in our lives form the relationship patterns that we recognize as familiar and normal.

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If those relationship patterns are mom's a narcissist and dad's an empath, or dad's a narcissist, those are going to be normal for us.

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Whatever it is that we're growing up with is normal for us.

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Firstly so and you know the train just went off the rails there- I was with you.

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Because it goes so many places.

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No, but I literally forgot where that train was coming from.

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Just take me back a step.

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So we're talking about what is narcissism?

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Oh, right, yeah, Okay, we're talking about the split, and then I went off.

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There's so many different details because every different little topic could be a chapter by itself, and my ADHD.

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It sometimes takes me to the next step and forgets what the step before was, and then I forget oh, we were talking about this because I can go down a whole new path.

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So what narcissism is and isn't.

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Well, the main problem of narcissism is the things haven't grown up.

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If you're not playing soccer, you don't get good at soccer.

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If you're not being emotionally attuned to, if you're avoiding your emotional experiences, you're not going to get emotionally mature either.

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You don't become emotionally mature by not feeling your emotions.

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Emotion is a capacity, and our capacity to feel takes work, and many men, specifically, have been taught not to feel, and that in itself causes narcissism, because if we learn not to feel, we also learn not to feel with others.

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So if you have a partner who never goes to sadness, they also don't go to your sadness, which means they don't have empathy for sadness.

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That's the first thing that's going wrong, because they don't go to sadness.

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So how do they know how you feel?

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They don't, and then you literally feel misunderstood because you are literally misunderstood.

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They do not go to those emotions, so they absolutely do not understand what your experience is.

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And then they end up doing really hurtful things and they don't acknowledge and they don't recognize often how hurtful it is because they don't let themselves feel those things.

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And often this is tied to toxic positivity.

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It's often tied to let's just be cheerful, let's just be happy.

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Oh, let's look at the bright side and avoid feeling this and avoid feeling that we can't avoid our feelings.

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It ends up sort of accumulating because we experience our emotions as energy and one of the myths that we're dealing with right now.

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Men and women both have nervous systems.

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That shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone?

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No, it should not.

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And they work pretty much the same.

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In fact, there's highly sensitive men and there's highly sensitive women.

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But culturally, women are sort of encouraged to develop emotionally, they're encouraged to be vulnerable, they're encouraged to connect with each other in deeper ways and that causes them to grow up emotionally.

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They're dealing with their emotions, they're dealing with their friends' emotions and we mature that way.

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Men traditionally, are being told buck up and be a man.

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And if they're crying they're like oh, stop crying, that's nothing, be a man.

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And so then they slowly shut down and over time they shut down.

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But we're not born shut down.

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But a big part of what's gone wrong in a lot of countries and it's certainly true for the US is men came back from war traumatized and dads and granddads and partners came back from war absolutely traumatized and we had no idea what that meant.

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So they come back from war and then they're expected to be happy.

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They're like oh, aren't you happy to be home?

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They're not happy to be home.

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They actually feel trauma, horrible, but they're trying to.

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No, I'm so happy, I'm so happy to be here.

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And they learned to ignore this huge bubble of trauma by shutting down and by being strong all the time.

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And if they have really, really strong ideals, they might be able to hold it together.

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But so many became alcoholic and so many and they also just taught the next generation not to feel their emotions because they couldn't themselves and they became abusive partners usually and the wife would be like, oh, he wasn't like this before the war, poor guy.

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So they accept the abuse.

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It's like, yeah, he doesn't mean it, he wasn't like this before.

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This is just the war.

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It became normalized in so many families and kids became desensitized in so many families and that generation really created the macho generation.

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If you can't feel, and that generation really created the macho generation.

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If you can't feel, it's like a billionaire who has no empathy, considering empathy a weakness because it's not something they have themselves.

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Empathy is a strength, right.

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Empathy is a higher level emotional skill that not everyone gets to, because if you're not feeling those feelings, like I said, you're not feeling them with others and you don't have empathy.

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Empathy is not feeling those feelings like I said, you're not feeling them with others and you don't have empathy.

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Empathy is not feeling sorry for someone, it's feeling with someone.

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And.

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I can give a real clear example of empathy.

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I don't want to throw under the bus, but it was just such a clear one.

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There's a dog here sitting with me.

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There's Jake, oh you can barely see him.

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Jake.

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There's Jake, we sitting with me, and there's Jake.

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Oh, you can barely see him, jake.

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There's Jake.

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We lost Jake's daughter last year, so it was a really horrible thing, and she was seven.

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It was unexpected.

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She was well Saturday.

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She was gone Monday.

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We were crying, we were upset, we were heartbroken.

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We call my partner's mother.

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She sees us crying on the phone Immediately.

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She's crying.

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That's what empathy looks like.

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Our mirror neurons cause us to feel the same way the other person's feeling and then they feel understood by us because we're literally feeling with them and we evolved to do this.

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But people have learned not to do this and if you're not doing this, then you're lacking that deep connection.

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So we made another phone call right after talking to their mother and the next phone call we made they looked and they saw us and they're like, oh, what's going on?

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It's like lady died.

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We're crying.

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Oh, that's too bad.

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The weather here is really really hot.

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Oh, my goodness.

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Immediately changed the subject, no feeling with, and then eventually came back to it.

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It's like, well, that's a shame, lady died, I guess it was her time, and then that was it and I was like so minimize and not feel with and try to fix are usually what someone's going to do if they're not feeling with others.

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And you don't have to be a narcissist to not feel with others.

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Trauma causes us to not feel with others, but narcissists also do not feel with others.

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That is what's going wrong, right?

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So that's what the two processes look like, and they don't realize they're doing it.

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They think they're there for you if they say the thing Like I don't know, I was so supportive, but they literally never go to any of those emotions with you.

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And a lot of the work of narcissism, firstly, is getting in their inner circle because there's no one there, and really that's the crux of narcissism too, is there's no one they fully trust.

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So there's always a cloak of even my partner I don't totally let into my secret experience.

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There's things I hide from my partner, there's things I hide from, and that's what narcissism looks like.

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It lives in shame, and to work with narcissism we actually need to bring it into the light.

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It needs to just be out in the open.

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So if someone comes in and they have a family, lucky them.

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And it's the only reason they come in To meet someone who's struggling with narcissism, who's not in a relationship.

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They just don't have the motivation for change.

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They need to have something they're going to lose.

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The whole family needs to be involved in it because they all need to learn what narcissist things look like.

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And then they all become against the narcissism, not against the person.

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So it just becomes what we accept can shift and what we fight ends up getting stuck.

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And what people usually do with narcissism is try not to be narcissistic, just try not to be, try not to be.

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It's like try not to be anxious, don't be anxious, don't be depressed.

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It doesn't work for any of those things.

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We need to be able to feel through what we're experiencing with our nervous systems, and that's so much of the work.

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So they learn to feel, but they have trauma work at the beginning because there's too much they've been avoiding for too long and everything feels dangerous.

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So the work is widening that window of tolerance.

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They come in with this range of emotion where they're just feeling sort of cheerful and happy and okay, and then they're not feeling up here and they're not feeling down here.

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And that's what people also misunderstand and need to understand too.

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When you are desensitizing yourself to painful emotions, to fear, to uncomfortableness, to disappointment, to anger, even to sadness, to grief.

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You are desensitizing your nervous system also to pleasure, to joy.

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You can't just choose which things.

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You're desensitizing your nervous system also to pleasure, to joy.

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You can't just choose which things you're desensitizing to.

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You're turning down the volume on everything when you do that, and that's what people don't realize and that's part of toxic positivity.

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You're turning down the volume and then you never quite feel satisfied either.

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So instead of feeling actual joy, they're chasing dopamine, chasing dopamine, chasing dopamine.

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The biggest trip, the best dinner, the best this, the best, this, going over here, going over there, I mean more likely to have affairs chasing the dopamine.

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It's common in society as well, right, because we've been taught to chase dopamine, doom scrolling on our phones, chasing dopamine.

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We go from device to device to device.

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So many people.

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If you're avoiding those emotions, you are not fully living and you will feel numb.

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And the less you allow your feel, the more numb you will feel, because you're literally avoiding your nervous system.

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So of course you feel numb.

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You're not letting yourself feel things, but we don't seem to realize that we can't just not feel the negatives, we need to be able to feel the negative.

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As an example, I started singing two years ago.

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Just a couple of years ago.

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I was a singer when I was younger.

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It was my joy, it really was my biggest joy.

00:18:00.761 --> 00:18:07.801
But it wasn't something my dad could do, so he didn't like it and he wanted me to be an engineer.

00:18:07.801 --> 00:18:12.893
But all my teachers were like your voice is a gift, you have to be a singer.

00:18:12.893 --> 00:18:21.114
But to force me into engineering, he shamed me for singing again and again and again and again.

00:18:21.114 --> 00:18:28.281
So I would sing at church and he'd be saying, oh, wasn't Darren great, but didn't he do a great job?

00:18:28.281 --> 00:18:30.789
And then around the corner he would immediately make me feel like garbage, like oh, you weren't very good.

00:18:30.789 --> 00:18:34.284
I was just being supportive and they were just being kind.

00:18:34.284 --> 00:18:35.246
Now you're not all that.

00:18:35.246 --> 00:18:36.509
Stop being a show-off.

00:18:36.509 --> 00:18:37.601
No one likes a show-off.

00:18:37.601 --> 00:18:39.044
Don't make people listen to you.

00:18:39.044 --> 00:18:49.507
And he did it enough times that I literally had a shame response when I sang and I felt guilty and I felt like I was making people listen to me and no one likes a show-off.

00:18:49.507 --> 00:18:53.003
Like those paradoxical ideas Stopped me singing.

00:18:53.003 --> 00:19:00.079
Eventually I just gave it up and I didn't bring it up again until the old guy died, and during pandemic as well.

00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:01.244
So I started singing.

00:19:01.942 --> 00:19:21.126
I started singing at home and eventually I wanted to sing in front of others and so I started singing live on Facebook, live on Instagram, sitting at the piano singing, and then you press the button going live, and all of a sudden the heart rate goes up and all of a sudden I feel a flush.

00:19:21.126 --> 00:19:30.643
It's hard to breathe, my hands are awkward on the piano, but when I say, oh my gosh, you guys, I turn this on and now I'm feeling so anxious, my heart rate's going really fast.

00:19:30.643 --> 00:19:38.048
And then, as I include myself, literally even though they're not there, I calm down and now I'm not anxious anymore.

00:19:38.048 --> 00:19:41.000
We need to be able to acknowledge what it is we're feeling.

00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.328
If I sit there saying, don't feel anxious, don't feel anxious, I'm going to be anxious.

00:19:45.328 --> 00:19:47.874
We need to express it Honestly.

00:19:48.074 --> 00:19:49.738
We evolved as human beings.

00:19:49.738 --> 00:19:53.405
We are pack animals and we forget that we're pack animals.

00:19:53.405 --> 00:19:55.430
We live so separately today.

00:19:55.430 --> 00:19:57.061
We're not meant to live so separately.

00:19:57.061 --> 00:20:01.563
We're meant to lean on each other and help each other, process emotions together and all the things.

00:20:01.563 --> 00:20:05.913
And when you don't do that, you put yourself on a desert island.

00:20:05.913 --> 00:20:20.808
So a lot of narcissists are just too alone and they're on a desert island and they lose reality and they gaslight themselves and they gaslight you and they over-identify with their thoughts because they're not checking them out, they're just believing them.

00:20:20.808 --> 00:20:23.463
Our thoughts are just creative processes in our mind.

00:20:23.463 --> 00:20:39.328
If we're not checking them out with others, eventually they're going to go away from reality and then they end up creating their own narrative, and their own narrative is this and then they try to pull you into their narrative instead of actually joining you in reality, and they have alternate facts, alternative facts.

00:20:39.619 --> 00:20:41.627
That horrible phrase that got coined.

00:20:44.381 --> 00:20:50.307
Well, do they do that to be mean or like why do they do that?

00:20:52.201 --> 00:20:58.194
It's complicated because there's different reasons why, but they also gaslight themselves and believe themselves Okay.

00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:02.590
So they could believe their own lies.

00:21:05.545 --> 00:21:15.394
There's childish processes that did not grow up, and one of them is the inability to keep two ideas true at the same time, and that's part of what goes wrong in relationships.

00:21:15.394 --> 00:21:17.124
It's part of why they become abusive.

00:21:17.124 --> 00:21:25.451
Quite often it's because when I'm mad at you, I forget that you're the person who loves me and that I love you, and I'm just in my anger.

00:21:25.451 --> 00:21:34.444
And if I'm just in my anger, I lose my compassion, I lose my grace and I might say really mean things or do something really mean and vindictive.

00:21:34.444 --> 00:21:41.611
Or I've learned that it's not okay, so I'm passive-aggressive and I'm pretending to be happy, but really I'm plotting against you.

00:21:41.611 --> 00:22:00.066
Or really I'm doing something like taking your keys and hiding it in a weird place, just so I know it's going to cause you problems later, like little vindictive, annoying things, because they've gotten triggered into this alternate state where they literally forget we're on the same team and so those two states are separate.

00:22:00.066 --> 00:22:19.973
That's the problem, and the work is integrating them over time, because first they let me into their inner circle and then we're working, and then I'm on both sides of the split with them, and as I'm going back and forth with them, they're coming to know this version of themselves more.

00:22:19.973 --> 00:22:24.151
This version they get triggered into and it's just automatic and it just takes over.

00:22:24.151 --> 00:22:26.540
It's just a trauma energy, because when we get triggered into and it's just automatic and it just takes over, it's just a trauma energy.

00:22:26.540 --> 00:22:33.307
Because when we get triggered by trauma energy, it turns off big parts of our brain and it's what's going wrong today as well.

00:22:33.307 --> 00:22:44.082
Honestly, in society, when we are afraid that part of our brain turns off, the empathy part, the most evolved parts of us, turn off and we are in fight and flight mode.

00:22:44.082 --> 00:23:13.859
When we're in fight and flight mode, we are not empathic and we are watching populations being pushed into fight and flight mode, causing them to turn off their empathy for each other, and we're watching it in real time, in big scale, and we're watching it being promoted by billionaires who want division Truly truly, because you can conquer people who are divided, you can bully a population when they are divided, and all this division is just fake division.

00:23:13.859 --> 00:23:16.519
It's just absolutely fake division.

00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:29.261
Americans are just a bunch of Americans first, but they've been taught to fear each other and we're watching the alternate reality and a narcissist really does have a lack of trust for others.

00:23:29.261 --> 00:23:32.454
They think you're lying, so I might as well lie first.

00:23:32.454 --> 00:23:38.558
Or you're cheating, so I might as well cheat first, or you're going to do this, so I'm going to do it first.

00:23:38.558 --> 00:23:45.874
As the most obvious example in the world, because we're all watching it every day if we turn on a TV.

00:23:47.576 --> 00:23:51.089
Trump really did think all the countries were taking advantage of us.

00:23:51.089 --> 00:23:54.618
He really did believe that Canada's taking advantage of us.

00:23:54.618 --> 00:24:00.151
We need to punish them because if they weren't taking advantage of us, we would be rich and happy right now, and we're not.

00:24:00.151 --> 00:24:01.133
So there's something wrong.

00:24:01.133 --> 00:24:09.780
But he believes that and he doesn't understand economics because he doesn't allow in reality that one lives in about 85% his own reality.

00:24:09.780 --> 00:24:14.998
You know, a narcissist tends to have a certain amount of reality that they share and a certain amount of reality that's theirs.

00:24:14.998 --> 00:24:27.192
I find most of them are more like 50, but he really is like 15% with us and 85% in his own creative narrative, and that justifies anything right.

00:24:27.192 --> 00:24:28.798
It justifies anything Well.

00:24:28.817 --> 00:24:29.621
So I have a question.

00:24:31.612 --> 00:24:33.057
See, I just go all over the place.

00:24:34.730 --> 00:24:48.781
So for you to be treating a narcissist who has, say, like 15, 85, 85, with true reality in their own reality, do you just call them out on that, or and are they receptive to you?

00:24:48.781 --> 00:25:01.718
I mean, I know like if it was, their partner probably would not be receptive, but since they're there for treatment, yeah it's you.

00:25:01.758 --> 00:25:04.343
This is this is a new, interesting thing that's coming up for me.

00:25:04.343 --> 00:25:08.740
Ai is not going away, so we might as well not pretend it's not here and not use it.

00:25:08.740 --> 00:25:12.518
I have been actually having success with narcissists using AI.

00:25:12.518 --> 00:25:19.416
Really, because that lack of trust, they do develop a trust for me.

00:25:19.416 --> 00:25:21.057
I really am not judging.

00:25:21.057 --> 00:25:22.494
I am not here to judge.

00:25:22.494 --> 00:25:25.335
I'm not judging them as bad, I'm not judging them as good.

00:25:25.335 --> 00:25:34.372
I'm really just they're having a human experience, and if their human experience is hurting others, I want to help them work on that, but I'm not judging them.

00:25:35.055 --> 00:25:40.634
They are the way they are because they're a human and all the things that happened in their life caused them to be how they are right now.

00:25:40.634 --> 00:25:46.284
And if you go to prisons, there's so much trauma.

00:25:46.284 --> 00:25:53.557
There's so much trauma that causes someone to defend themselves and to feel that anger and such, so they really don't feel judged.

00:25:53.557 --> 00:25:57.441
So we do create a different kind of connection than they've had with anyone else.

00:25:57.441 --> 00:26:11.462
The work is, though, having them expand that connection to others, and that's where it goes wrong with a lot of therapy, because the narcissistic people in my family they learn to be close to their therapist.

00:26:11.462 --> 00:26:14.259
They tell their therapist all their problems literally no one else knows.

00:26:14.259 --> 00:26:18.541
Well, they're still living in their narcissism with everybody else except their therapist.

00:26:18.541 --> 00:26:29.303
We need to teach them to learn vulnerability with more than just us and to have them exploring in the world with developing more trusting, more honest processes.

00:26:29.303 --> 00:26:45.836
And that's where I came up with the concept of loops, because it's easier to love someone who's loving us back, for example, and if someone doesn't have any trust for humans, they often can learn trust for an animal because animals are so.

00:26:45.836 --> 00:26:48.320
They're so unconditional.

00:26:48.320 --> 00:27:01.994
You know that dog loves you, it just loves you, and even you're mean to that dog and then he loves you again Because, just like a narcissist, a dog lacks object constancy and he looks at you and he feels love and he forgets that you were so mean yesterday.

00:27:01.994 --> 00:27:06.003
Because they're like three-year-olds, they do not have the full picture.

00:27:08.271 --> 00:27:18.971
So, practicing with someone who loves you back, really easily they learn that love feels good in their own body Because for some reason they think when I love someone, I'm giving something away.

00:27:18.971 --> 00:27:21.924
No, no, no, love feels great inside you.

00:27:21.924 --> 00:27:29.498
You get to feel the feeling of love inside you and if you're not loving people, you're missing out on all those feelings of love in your own body.

00:27:29.498 --> 00:27:31.003
That's one of the things that gets them.

00:27:31.003 --> 00:27:32.732
They realize they're missing out on things.

00:27:32.732 --> 00:27:37.471
They don't want to miss out on things and they want to have their best relationships, don't they?

00:27:37.471 --> 00:27:38.730
Of course they do.

00:27:38.751 --> 00:27:42.413
It's like, well, there's only one way to have your best relationships.

00:27:42.413 --> 00:27:44.755
There's no other way you can do it.

00:27:44.755 --> 00:27:55.122
You can be on your deathbed and people can be there because they have to be, because you're giving them the house and because you did this and did that, so they felt cared for by you, because how you made them feel was special.

00:27:55.122 --> 00:28:08.141
That is what a true, deep relationship looks like and that's what we need to aim for.

00:28:08.141 --> 00:28:20.435
So when I work with someone who's narcissistic, they need to be willing to have love and kindness as goal behavior firstly, but they're also moving towards that recognizing, oh, how other people feel with me really matters.

00:28:20.435 --> 00:28:23.603
So I shouldn't just do whatever I want and manipulate to get always what I want.

00:28:23.603 --> 00:28:30.497
That lack of empathy right has them thinking of themselves too much, and that's a natural trauma response too.

00:28:30.917 --> 00:28:32.099
Yeah, so, okay.

00:28:32.099 --> 00:28:39.373
So now I'm, I guess, the confusing part is when all of.

00:28:39.373 --> 00:28:40.173
It's the confusing part.

00:28:40.173 --> 00:28:49.599
But if so, you're in a relationship with a narcissist and you love them and you are being kind and you're giving them all of that.

00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:53.981
Why do they then seem to turn on you?

00:28:57.223 --> 00:29:06.538
Because all the things they avoid become a charged energy that builds up and they're also avoiding shame.

00:29:06.538 --> 00:29:13.323
So they turn on you, because when they have a feeling that's uncomfortable, they think it's your fault.

00:29:13.323 --> 00:29:26.156
So if they walk in the room and you look at them and they suddenly feel guilty or they feel sad, they feel like not cherished in some kind of way and it feels like a.

00:29:26.156 --> 00:29:30.532
I can tell you, in the relationship that ended my ability to not see narcissism.

00:29:30.532 --> 00:29:32.196
This is what was happening.

00:29:32.196 --> 00:29:41.000
I wasn't allowed to have a mood of any other kind except admiration Cause if they came home and I didn't look at them like, yay, you're home.

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:51.661
Because if they came home and I didn't look at them like, yeah, you're home, anything else was not okay.

00:29:51.661 --> 00:29:53.328
So, over the top, yeah, and I was okay with that.

00:29:53.328 --> 00:29:53.589
I grew up.

00:29:53.589 --> 00:29:55.830
That was normal for me.

00:29:55.830 --> 00:29:57.413
Yeah, sure, you come in, you fawn over them, yeah, you're home.

00:29:57.413 --> 00:29:58.174
And I felt it.

00:29:58.174 --> 00:29:58.315
Anyway.

00:29:58.315 --> 00:30:00.278
I was happy they're home and I love them and I feel big feelings.

00:30:00.278 --> 00:30:07.519
But if I had a bad day oh God help me it's because I wasn't allowed to be in a grumpy mood Like what's wrong with you?

00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:09.202
Like nothing.

00:30:09.202 --> 00:30:11.938
My mom's dog died.

00:30:11.938 --> 00:30:17.739
It's been in my life for 20 years, like, yeah, but like, why'd you look at me like that?

00:30:17.739 --> 00:30:19.482
Like like what you know what you did?

00:30:19.482 --> 00:30:21.174
You looked at me like, and like what you know what you did.

00:30:21.174 --> 00:30:22.018
You looked at me like what?

00:30:22.018 --> 00:30:25.597
And then all of a sudden you're in some kind of fight and they're yelling at you and it's like what?

00:30:25.597 --> 00:30:28.773
And it's because my mood impacted their mood.

00:30:28.773 --> 00:30:38.021
They can co-regulate with the happy things because they're not defending from them, so they kind of expect you to keep them in a good mood.

00:30:38.021 --> 00:30:41.421
And that's where the emotional manipulation happens.

00:30:41.421 --> 00:30:48.022
And it's so invisible because we don't really notice that we're managing their mood, especially if we've learned to do it.

00:30:49.330 --> 00:30:54.775
When we're doing things they like, they'll be in a cheerful mood and they'll be treating us nice and they'll be giving us approval.

00:30:54.775 --> 00:31:00.895
But if we're doing things they don't like, they'll be devaluing us, either outright or in their head.

00:31:00.895 --> 00:31:05.344
And they might be cold, they might be mean, they might be, but it truly is.

00:31:05.344 --> 00:31:07.055
We're making them feel good.

00:31:07.055 --> 00:31:08.118
They're on our team.

00:31:08.118 --> 00:31:09.334
We're making them not feel good.

00:31:09.334 --> 00:31:10.178
I hate you.

00:31:10.178 --> 00:31:16.818
It's that lack of object constancy that they'd never get past, they'd never grow out of, and it's that split.

00:31:16.818 --> 00:31:18.496
You're dealing with that split.

00:31:18.496 --> 00:31:24.934
When you're doing things I like, I love you.

00:31:24.954 --> 00:31:32.402
When you're not doing things that you like, they devalue, in fact, and in those moments they may forget all the things they love about you and they're just remembering all the things they don't like because their two energies are so separate.

00:31:32.402 --> 00:31:39.156
And now they're like oh, you always do this and remember that time 10 years ago, when you made me wait for blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:31:39.156 --> 00:31:44.505
They're just remembering all those things because our feelings tend to live in that energy.

00:31:44.505 --> 00:32:01.201
We experience our emotions as energy, as positive energy and negative energy, and when they're in that negative energy, they've literally forgotten all this stuff that happened in their positive energy that they've joined you for and they demand you to be that person they can join.

00:32:01.201 --> 00:32:11.157
So if I wasn't able to make them feel cheerful, I was being accused of being abusive and I knew myself not to be abusive and it always was like what is he talking about?

00:32:11.157 --> 00:32:17.940
Things that aren't true don't hurt as much, but the twisting and the twisting and the twisting and the twisting.

00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:24.231
Over time, you get blamed for things a lot and there's projection and they think you're feeling the way.

00:32:24.251 --> 00:32:27.661
Over time, you get blamed for things a lot and there's projection and they think you're feeling the way they feel.

00:32:27.661 --> 00:32:28.584
And that's something I deal with now.

00:32:28.584 --> 00:32:33.518
When a certain someone, when they're feeling upset they always accuse me of being upset.

00:32:33.518 --> 00:32:41.846
When they're feeling angry, it's like you're so angry and I'm like literally neutral and then they won't believe me.

00:32:41.846 --> 00:32:43.851
They're telling me no, you're not, you're so angry.

00:32:43.851 --> 00:32:48.980
I can tell you're angry, it's like, no, you're angry, you are angry.

00:32:48.980 --> 00:32:51.771
It's really hard for them to be able to.

00:32:51.771 --> 00:32:58.992
If it's not a feeling that they identify with, they will be pointing to you as the cause of why they're feeling angry.

00:32:58.992 --> 00:33:03.698
And it must be because you're so angry that they're kind of feeling this and they believe it.

00:33:03.698 --> 00:33:07.663
They really do believe it, and they will treat you in the way they think you are.

00:33:07.663 --> 00:33:15.829
I mean, if they think you're being mean, they're going to be mean, and if they think you're being angry, they'll probably be angry.

00:33:15.829 --> 00:33:24.991
All that projection, but the turning on you, it really's the two energies that they turn when they're in their negative energy really.

00:33:25.432 --> 00:33:32.154
And then so I know that you're more on the side of helping narcissists recover.

00:33:32.154 --> 00:33:33.018
Is that the right word?

00:33:33.018 --> 00:33:34.101
I don't know if that's the right term.

00:33:34.250 --> 00:33:57.152
Well, yeah, I haven't heard it used by anyone else, but I call my clients recovering narcissists because when they're in recovery and we're dealing with everything out in the open and they're dealing with their narcissism, as it happens they're in recovery and they're not actively acting out their narcissism, so instead of acting on it, they're sharing it and talking about it and starting to understand themselves.

00:33:57.152 --> 00:34:00.449
They have to grow up emotionally, so it's not a comfortable thing to do.

00:34:00.449 --> 00:34:04.641
They're usually very proud people to realize you're an emotional child.

00:34:04.641 --> 00:34:06.757
It's hard for them to come to grasp with.

00:34:07.097 --> 00:34:09.514
Right right, but that's what we're doing.

00:34:10.972 --> 00:34:20.518
And oh, the train just left again Shoot, okay, I'm going to get you on another train quick then, while that one's out, so I know that you're working more with them.

00:34:20.518 --> 00:34:21.652
Oh right, right.

00:34:21.652 --> 00:34:23.913
What would your recommendation be like?

00:34:23.913 --> 00:34:35.820
You wouldn't recommend somebody stay in this relationship and try to adjust their behavior to keep that individual at bay.

00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:36.382
Like what?

00:34:36.382 --> 00:34:41.815
Yeah, what do they do, because that I mean then you get destroyed in that process.

00:34:42.396 --> 00:34:51.952
So why I call them a recovering narcissist is because when they're not recovering, they are a narcissist again.

00:34:51.952 --> 00:34:52.735
So they need to be in recovery.

00:34:52.735 --> 00:34:56.630
Just like an alcoholic needs to be in recovery, not reaching for the alcohol, having a support system in place so that there's enough support.

00:34:56.630 --> 00:34:58.155
They don't need to reach for the alcohol.

00:34:58.155 --> 00:35:06.677
A recovering narcissist needs to have the support in place that they're continuing to practice positive relationship skills.

00:35:06.677 --> 00:35:10.896
And that's why I call it the love loops, because the more you love me, the more I love you.

00:35:10.896 --> 00:35:12.360
The more you love me, the more I love you.

00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:16.862
And they get into these patterns that they like and it's easier to keep it going.

00:35:16.862 --> 00:35:22.130
And these are patterns they never felt before because they weren't going to any of those emotions.

00:35:22.130 --> 00:35:24.972
So they're missing out on the emotions up here and the emotions down here.

00:35:24.972 --> 00:35:29.876
So we're widening their ability to feel emotion, which feels dangerous to them.

00:35:29.876 --> 00:35:32.018
So we need to'm excited to see you.

00:35:32.018 --> 00:35:34.619
We create these things together and I and they can have little experiments.

00:35:34.619 --> 00:35:52.655
I walk through my, I live in a condo building on the and so when I leave there's there's a concierge person in the lobby.

00:35:52.655 --> 00:35:56.342
I like the concierge people, I like saying hello to them.

00:35:56.342 --> 00:35:58.271
I want to know how their day's going.

00:35:58.271 --> 00:35:59.813
They're part of my little world.

00:35:59.813 --> 00:36:05.199
So when I walk up to concierge, there's a smile, there's a friendliness.

00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:10.704
Some people think the concierge are horrible, but they only go when they have problems and they're angry.

00:36:10.704 --> 00:36:17.630
So they walk up to concierge, like this isn't working.

00:36:17.630 --> 00:36:18.731
And then they meet the concierge version.

00:36:18.731 --> 00:36:20.231
That's like okay, let me see whatever version they get to meet.

00:36:20.231 --> 00:36:24.715
Because we co-create our relationships and that's one thing that the narcissist doesn't realize.

00:36:24.715 --> 00:36:29.039
You are co-creating how people are with you and we're all doing that.

00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:40.490
So they can have these experiments go to the grocery store and, instead of judging the person at the cash register and looking at them for faults, do the opposite.

00:36:40.490 --> 00:36:48.400
Look for the things that are good about that person, because they eventually learn that it feels so much better to live in the positive.

00:36:48.400 --> 00:37:00.574
When you look for the good in others, it brings out the good in others, and when you look for the bad in others, it actually brings out bad in others, and that's part of what goes wrong when they're always accusing you of being creepy, angry and whatever.

00:37:00.574 --> 00:37:09.650
So they do, they go in and they notice the good things about the person in front of them and they might even say something nice, and then they notice oh, it's quite different when I do this.

00:37:09.650 --> 00:37:20.538
So they start to learn that they're co-creating these relationships and so the more they're getting vulnerable and the more they're dealing with their deeper feelings, the more they're able to feel on both sides.

00:37:20.538 --> 00:37:21.860
And so we're.

00:37:22.802 --> 00:37:26.327
But it needs, but it needs, it needs, it needs to create.

00:37:26.327 --> 00:37:29.599
They need to create those loops and have a few trusting loops.

00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:30.503
That there's, you know.

00:37:30.503 --> 00:37:35.940
So I'm not the only person in their inner circle and so if I go away, they end up crashing again.

00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:41.661
They need to have some people in their inner circle and they need to develop trust, because trust is what's lacking right.

00:37:41.661 --> 00:37:46.264
It's and circle, and they need to develop trust because trust is what's lacking right, and they need to be open about what's happening for them.

00:37:46.264 --> 00:37:52.268
You know, the people in their immediate path need to understand the emotional processes that they're dealing with.

00:37:52.268 --> 00:37:57.811
Actually, because it's so hurtful it can be, so hurtful it is, and you can't love someone to being better.

00:37:57.811 --> 00:38:00.619
I don't want to make someone think, and you can just love them and now they'll be fine.

00:38:00.980 --> 00:38:04.389
No, they'll still be abusive, don't, don't don't try to love them to be better.

00:38:04.389 --> 00:38:04.771
Really.

00:38:04.771 --> 00:38:12.780
I mean, I love what you're saying, I just really I don't want someone to interpret this as okay, I can fix them If I do this, I can.

00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:16.693
Yeah, it is a relational disorder though.

00:38:16.693 --> 00:38:20.500
So relational disorder mean who they are with others is the disorder.

00:38:20.500 --> 00:38:24.697
So who they are with others is where the work is, and I practice relational therapy.

00:38:24.697 --> 00:38:29.461
So it means we're having a real relationship and we're working on their relationship skills together.

00:38:29.461 --> 00:38:39.021
So if they don't have loved ones in their life, there's not really any hope for them unless they're willing to create relationships, because it only heals in relationship.

00:38:39.730 --> 00:38:54.197
And too many narcissists go and learn to be strong alone in therapy and then they're just a strong, happy, alone narcissist who you know, unaware of their negative impacts around them, and think they're fabulous because they're on the board of deacons and because they serve soup at the soup kitchen.

00:38:54.197 --> 00:38:55.802
And what a wonderful person I am.

00:38:55.802 --> 00:39:02.963
A narcissist doesn't have the feeling that they're good, so they often end up looking for check marks to prove that they're good.

00:39:02.963 --> 00:39:09.690
And they're overrepresented in medicine, for one, because they're proving how smart they are and they often want to take care of others.

00:39:09.690 --> 00:39:15.682
And doctors are quite respected and they want to be respected, so they want to be the top doctor.

00:39:15.682 --> 00:39:19.217
So there's quite a few of that.

00:39:19.217 --> 00:39:21.257
And narcissism doesn't have to be bad.

00:39:21.257 --> 00:39:25.621
We need people with narcissism to a degree.

00:39:25.621 --> 00:39:29.913
When it comes to some of the traits.

00:39:29.913 --> 00:39:33.206
We need people who are happy to have the microphone and like the validation of applause, that's good, it's not hurting anyone.

00:39:33.750 --> 00:39:36.639
But narcissists, they're addicted to validation.

00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:39.559
You have to validate, validate, validate, validate.

00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:41.554
And if you're not validating, what's wrong with you?

00:39:41.554 --> 00:39:45.280
Like they need too much validation.

00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:46.884
Their sense of self is so weak.

00:39:46.884 --> 00:40:00.489
They need a constant validation and if you give them negative validation, no-transcript.

00:40:00.791 --> 00:40:06.514
What goes wrong in relationships too is because they cannot take in the things that they do wrong, they defend against it.

00:40:06.514 --> 00:40:14.789
The partner's trying to say, every time I do this, this happens, and they're already defending like, oh yeah, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:40:14.789 --> 00:40:17.358
It's like you're not taking in anything that they're saying.

00:40:17.358 --> 00:40:22.000
They don't know, they're not, they're arguing before the information even gets there.

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:36.224
Part of what's gone wrong and this is another controversial topic opening the door, I was taught to have blind faith.

00:40:37.806 --> 00:41:04.952
When you're taught to have blind faith and to just listen without questioning and just to accept without questioning, and then you're taught the media is lying to you and then you're taught science is lying to you, you leave reality right and people have been gaslit out of reality, Just like a narcissist leaves reality, there's been a cultural departure from reality as well, A doubling down against the actual information for the narrative that I have.

00:41:04.952 --> 00:41:07.097
That's exactly what a narcissist does.

00:41:07.097 --> 00:41:20.753
They have their narrative and they're trying to pull you into their narrative and they will gaslight you into their narrative, speaking things that aren't true as if they are true and repeating it enough times that it sort of sounds true or you just get used to hearing it.

00:41:20.753 --> 00:41:22.077
I had a question.

00:41:22.998 --> 00:41:24.181
I just left my brain.

00:41:24.181 --> 00:41:25.041
I had a question, I just left my brain.

00:41:25.041 --> 00:41:42.027
Okay, so what about like the narcissist, when they are like mean to their partner, but then to everybody else they're the most amazing person and it makes that partner question their reality even more and question like well, is it just me?

00:41:42.027 --> 00:41:44.286
I'm being told it's me, is it me?

00:41:44.967 --> 00:41:46.507
That is so hard.

00:41:46.507 --> 00:41:50.688
The thing is, once you see that other side of themselves.

00:41:50.688 --> 00:42:06.331
So once you're privy to the fact that there is a mean side, then you're going to see it a lot more, because they're not going to hide it as much and they're going to think you deserve it, and because they actually think everyone else is playing the same game of fake that they are.

00:42:06.331 --> 00:42:08.719
They think, oh yeah, we're all just pretending to be good.

00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:10.574
Oh yeah, we're all pretending to be kind.

00:42:10.574 --> 00:42:12.143
Oh yeah, we're all pretending to be.

00:42:12.143 --> 00:42:16.797
It's like no, I actually feel kindness, like I actually want to help this person.

00:42:16.797 --> 00:42:19.422
It makes me feel good to help this person.

00:42:19.422 --> 00:42:21.998
It's like, no, no, I actually find this person interesting.

00:42:21.998 --> 00:42:30.693
I'm not pretending, but they think we're all pretending.

00:42:30.693 --> 00:42:33.161
So they have this pretend thing and they join us in our positive energies so they're able to feel it with us.

00:42:33.161 --> 00:42:39.378
But then they leave and they're in this yucky, dirty energy and they end up showing it to their intimate partner because they just ended up not being able to, not to.

00:42:39.378 --> 00:42:43.695
But then they punish you for it, but no one else can see it.

00:42:43.695 --> 00:42:45.318
No one else can see it.

00:42:45.318 --> 00:42:48.184
It's so hard.

00:42:48.184 --> 00:42:58.559
It's happening to me as well, because the friends all know this version and I know this and this version and they just don't get that there's this other version I'm dealing with.

00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:03.119
It's just so hard for them to comprehend that there's two versions of this person.

00:43:03.579 --> 00:43:05.432
And then it's an energetic right.

00:43:05.432 --> 00:43:19.438
We are energetic creatures and we do experience our emotions as energy and a lot of narcissists are able to be wonderful, charming and stay in that wonderful energy throughout their workday with the neighbors and they're friendly and just wonderful.

00:43:19.438 --> 00:43:21.311
And then they come home and they're exhausted.

00:43:21.311 --> 00:43:27.282
Then you get the worst of them because they're exhausted and they've been trying to be a good person all day and now you say the wrong thing.

00:43:27.282 --> 00:43:28.985
You're like, what's wrong with you?

00:43:28.985 --> 00:43:38.976
You're you always, and then all of a sudden they get a hyperbolic and they literally forget everything you ever did that was good, Like, and then they can be and parts of their brains turn off.

00:43:38.976 --> 00:43:41.699
So they you know, the empathy is just not there.

00:43:41.699 --> 00:43:44.382
Um, it's awful right.

00:43:44.782 --> 00:43:45.123
It is.

00:43:45.282 --> 00:43:46.664
It's terrible.

00:43:46.664 --> 00:43:55.255
Yeah, it's the on-off switch that you get to see over and over and over and that's the liking you when you're doing what they like and not liking you if you're doing what they don't like.

00:43:55.255 --> 00:44:02.898
And it's wonderful if you happen to like all the same things and you're always happy to be doing what they're wanting you to do.

00:44:02.898 --> 00:44:06.498
It can go along really well for quite a while until something goes wrong.

00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:09.257
Yeah, the good times are great times.

00:44:09.769 --> 00:44:12.780
The good times are the best times because they're so hyperbolic about it.

00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:14.637
Oh my God, this is the best restaurant.

00:44:14.637 --> 00:44:16.155
Oh, we had the best meal ever.

00:44:16.155 --> 00:44:18.458
Oh, you wouldn't believe how smart this person was.

00:44:18.458 --> 00:44:18.798
We met.

00:44:18.798 --> 00:44:28.952
But then they also have oh, it was the worst waiter, it was just awful.

00:44:28.952 --> 00:44:29.655
Oh, the traffic was just horrible.

00:44:29.655 --> 00:44:31.159
They tend to go both ways, which is exciting.

00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:32.864
It's exciting and dramatic.

00:44:33.306 --> 00:44:37.918
When you come from a narcissistic family, it's hard to have a normal life.

00:44:37.918 --> 00:44:40.403
Normal sort of feels boring.

00:44:40.403 --> 00:44:43.030
It doesn't have such highs and lows.

00:44:43.030 --> 00:44:45.998
Narcissists are missing all that in between.00:44:45.998 --> 00:44:47.871


Most of life lives in this.00:44:47.871 --> 00:44:53.813


In between, they live in the polarized experiences of it, and that's so exciting and dramatic.00:44:53.813 --> 00:44:57.021


You leave a narcissist family and you find normal people boring.00:44:57.021 --> 00:45:00.043


Like, oh, yeah, they're really nice but not very exciting.00:45:00.043 --> 00:45:05.356


Like, yeah, they don't exaggerate everything and we're so used to exaggeration.00:45:05.356 --> 00:45:18.579


They just go to calm when they're having a fight, when they're angry, and it seems like often the narcissist is the calm one and the partner is getting more and more upset because they're not being seen and understood ever.00:45:18.579 --> 00:45:26.601


So then they end up dysregulating and then the narcissist goes to calm and then the one who's dysregulated looks like the crazy one or the abusive one.00:45:26.601 --> 00:45:28.056


It's totally the opposite.00:45:28.670 --> 00:45:29.836


Yes, and they sit back and look at you.00:45:29.836 --> 00:45:31.576


Oh my God, you're crazy.00:45:31.876 --> 00:45:36.050


Yeah, yeah, they push us off the ledge and then they blame us for falling off the ledge.00:45:36.050 --> 00:45:40.963


You know, it's just a typical narcissist process.00:45:40.963 --> 00:45:50.922


You end up borderline if you live with a narcissist too long because you're adapting to them and you end up dysregulating more and more and more just to be seen and understood.00:45:50.922 --> 00:45:52.831


You have to dysregulate, literally.00:45:52.831 --> 00:46:01.655


You have to exaggerate your own emotions for them to listen to them and you eventually, because they ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore, they're not attuning, not attuning, not attuning.00:46:01.655 --> 00:46:05.393


Then there's a crisis and they're like oh, you're so dramatic.00:46:05.393 --> 00:46:10.431


It's like you literally didn't listen for the 12 times I asked you to do the thing Right.00:46:10.431 --> 00:46:15.460


You have to change the program and so that's it's become.00:46:15.460 --> 00:46:20.398


It's become my life, it's become my, it's really become my life project.00:46:20.398 --> 00:46:21.641


Do you mind if I go into that part?00:46:21.641 --> 00:46:23.112


No, please do.00:46:23.112 --> 00:46:38.400


I'm creating a project called the Narcissism Recovery Project and I'm swapping out recovering narcissists more for recovering humans, because there's so much in common In the Narcissism Recovery Project.00:46:38.420 --> 00:46:40.572


There is a collection of books coming.00:46:40.572 --> 00:47:00.762


The first one is called the United States of Disconnection, and the United States of Disconnection is a book about what's happening right now in America the fear-mongering that's caused division, the narcissistic processes that have been happening, that caused division, having a narcissistic Oval Office, what that does.00:47:00.762 --> 00:47:08.786


There's narcissistic abuse happening to literally the whole country and the whole country has suffered narcissistic abuse to literally the whole country and the whole country has suffered narcissistic abuse and now they don't trust each other.00:47:08.786 --> 00:47:12.677


The whole country needs to recover from narcissistic abuse the whole country.00:47:12.677 --> 00:47:14.943


Honestly, it's become so normalized.00:47:14.943 --> 00:47:21.222


It has been way too normalized and emotional immaturity has become normalized.00:47:21.222 --> 00:47:29.815


But also the American dream the American dream is narcissistic Having the biggest house and the best cars and the most things.00:47:29.815 --> 00:47:31.981


That dream is narcissistic.00:47:31.981 --> 00:47:35.396


That's chasing materialism instead of chasing values.00:47:35.396 --> 00:47:42.657


Instead of having the most loving relationships and the most loving community, we want the biggest house.00:47:42.817 --> 00:47:50.054


I have clients who move from this kind of living in condos and they move to the suburbs to have the big house and they're depressed.00:47:50.054 --> 00:48:02.072


And then I meet them because they're so depressed they live in these suburbs, they used to walk out the door and they used to know neighbors and they used to have this feeling of community and now they have no feeling of community but they have a great big house.00:48:02.072 --> 00:48:04.538


We are pack animals.00:48:04.538 --> 00:48:19.221


We are pack animals and we've been taught by media to be chasing these dreams of yeah, if you have this beautiful bag, you're going to feel better walking down the street, and then you devote too many hours buying this stupid handbag that's made in China anyway, pretending to come from Italy.00:48:19.221 --> 00:48:28.313


We value the wrong things and we chase the wrong things, right, and then you're not growing up emotionally and learning to love each other.00:48:28.313 --> 00:48:30.878


You're learning to love Prada.00:48:30.878 --> 00:48:37.230


Really, we need to turn the ship around and people need to recognize we're just a bunch of pack animals.00:48:37.329 --> 00:48:45.958


So what I'm working on right now my assistant bless him, he's working on it right now is free manuals to go with the book.00:48:45.958 --> 00:49:07.360


I'm working on companion guides to go with the United States of Disconnection so that people can start their own book clubs so that they can download these free guides, and I'm also creating separately, just a 12-week program of connection, so literally anyone can download this PDF and invite some neighbors to come over on Tuesday evenings and they all download this PDF.00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:18.840


And now you have a group guide and you can literally practice your relationship skills together, because we need to learn to love each other, we need to learn to develop trust, we need to practice our emotional skills and our relationship skills.00:49:18.840 --> 00:49:34.659


I'm creating these guides that will be free PDFs that people can just start creating love loops around them and start bringing people back together and start conversations and start having spaces where we're not judging each other.00:49:34.659 --> 00:49:43.900


Here we're just listening and we're actually practicing empathy and we're practicing love and kindness and this is a safe space, because we all need something like AA right now.00:49:44.369 --> 00:49:53.041


You know AA is a really good support group and so my dream is that there's going to be love loop groups.00:49:53.041 --> 00:49:57.818


You can just drop in a love loop group and you can sit in a sharing circle and you can share that.00:49:57.818 --> 00:49:59.331


You're having a hard time with other people.00:49:59.331 --> 00:50:01.918


It doesn't matter if you're not addicted to alcohol.00:50:01.918 --> 00:50:05.117


You're still living in this difficult world and you want to share with people.00:50:05.398 --> 00:50:21.777


There needs to be groups for that, but the more we're able to develop more trust with each other and the more trust we create like trust really is an incredibly important part of society, because trust allows us to have compassion, and without compassion, it all goes wrong.00:50:21.777 --> 00:50:22.974


It just all goes wrong.00:50:22.974 --> 00:50:26.431


We're all flawed people and we need compassion for each other.00:50:26.431 --> 00:50:38.541


The traits that we consider feminine are higher level emotional skills, and we consider them feminine because they're nurtured more by feminine, identified people.00:50:38.541 --> 00:50:43.818


But they're just emotional skills and they're skills we should all be aiming for, not just women.00:50:43.818 --> 00:50:45.923


We all should be aiming for these skills.00:50:45.923 --> 00:50:47.315


They're our most evolved skills.00:50:47.315 --> 00:50:50.376


We're just meant to love each other honestly, right?00:50:50.376 --> 00:50:53.648


Yeah, well, okay.00:50:54.731 --> 00:50:59.583


So, speaking of women and love, I guess I'm going to kind of twist it like that.00:50:59.583 --> 00:51:05.480


You have another thing that you do to help talk about narcissism.00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:05.981


That's true.00:51:07.063 --> 00:51:07.304


Yeah.00:51:07.731 --> 00:51:09.197


And that's Doreen Devine.00:51:11.293 --> 00:51:12.336


That's absolutely right.00:51:12.336 --> 00:51:21.503


So, as we know, waking up to narcissism is really the main thing that causes people to not have change.00:51:21.503 --> 00:51:23.117


They never see it in themselves.00:51:23.117 --> 00:51:26.012


It's always the other person's problem, it's always something wrong with them.00:51:26.012 --> 00:51:27.315


Everyone's just stupid.00:51:27.315 --> 00:51:30.280


It's always something else's fault.00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:31.643


So they don't do the personal work.00:51:31.643 --> 00:51:48.215


But she's open about what's going on for her.00:51:48.215 --> 00:51:50.666


So she's she's she's openly having narcissistic experiences and then sharing with the audience what it is.00:51:50.666 --> 00:51:51.148


She's what's going on.00:51:51.148 --> 00:51:52.592


She's like you know what I just did there?00:51:52.592 --> 00:51:53.677


I just lied to myself.00:51:53.677 --> 00:51:56.567


That's what happened, huh.00:51:56.567 --> 00:51:59.175


And then she goes through what happened to in her inner.00:51:59.175 --> 00:52:02.045


You know how she ended up gaslighting herself.00:52:02.467 --> 00:52:06.657


People in the audience are not defending against this information, they're just sort of taking it in.00:52:06.657 --> 00:52:10.773


Some of them are going like oh, my God, is that narcissistic, is it?00:52:10.773 --> 00:52:12.556


Oh, oh.00:52:12.556 --> 00:52:23.501


And in fact, my own, my own ex-partner, woke up from Doreen sharing, sharing about how, how she feels like everyone's always watching her.00:52:23.501 --> 00:52:31.398


You know she like you know I'm walking down the street and everyone's looking at me and it's so stressful sometimes, but I also like it.00:52:32.130 --> 00:52:37.478


She's going on about how it feels like everyone's always watching her and he's like I feel like that.00:52:37.478 --> 00:52:39.297


Is that not how people feel?00:52:39.297 --> 00:52:41.699


Like no, no, that's not how everyone feels.00:52:41.699 --> 00:52:51.639


And then so it's the ability to identify with someone else in a way that's funny and relatable, rather than blaming and contemptible.00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:55.481


Because if you think you're a narcissist and you say, am I a narcissist?00:52:55.481 --> 00:53:04.432


You get hit with fire and brimstone online, right, it's just going to be all like run, run, they're horrible, they're horrible, they're abusive and they are horrible and you should run.00:53:04.432 --> 00:53:16.896


But they're also just humans having a human experience, and the more we can get in touch with each other and our human experiences and the more we can support each other in that, the less hurtful we'll become.00:53:16.916 --> 00:53:17.458


I like that.00:53:17.458 --> 00:53:27.503


You use comedy and I know that it's a bit unconventional and some people scoff at the idea of such a heavy topic and poking fun at it.00:53:27.503 --> 00:53:32.722


If you're hearing just all the really bad, negative things, you sort of turn off and you don't listen.00:53:32.722 --> 00:53:50.898


But when you're talking about a topic and not making light of it but making it more, I guess, palatable almost then you're able to soak in the actual content of what's being trying to, you know, trying to get across.00:53:52.030 --> 00:53:54.436


In Gestalt we say we need to.00:53:54.436 --> 00:53:56.702


It's the paradoxical theory of change.00:53:56.702 --> 00:53:59.976


We can't change what we don't accept.00:53:59.976 --> 00:54:04.951


And right now, narcissism is not accepted, it's not acceptable and we can't change it.00:54:04.951 --> 00:54:11.615


We actually need to accept it, we need to recognize it, and when we accept it, that's when it shifts.00:54:12.197 --> 00:54:24.726


And I also plan to have a one-woman show who didn't sing for all these years, but now that I've got my voice back out, I'm a singer without an audience.00:54:24.726 --> 00:54:33.217


And that came back through Doreen too, because, as I mentioned earlier, I was shamed out of singing and I felt a shame response and I was too ashamed to sing in front.00:54:33.217 --> 00:54:35.137


And that's part of what drag does as well.00:54:35.137 --> 00:54:46.474


It gives you the confidence to bring yourself up when you've been taught to be small and that's true for a lot of drag artists.00:54:46.474 --> 00:54:49.007


Where they've been, they were small in their lives and then they're able to shine through their, through their drag persona.00:54:49.007 --> 00:54:49.650


So she, she's a singer.00:54:49.650 --> 00:54:55.237


She's planning to have a show that's educating about narcissism that has guests on singing at the piano.00:54:56.110 --> 00:54:57.552


I don't know if you ever heard of Dame Edna.00:54:57.552 --> 00:54:59.012


He was a, he was a.00:54:59.012 --> 00:55:00.635


He he's a.00:55:00.635 --> 00:55:08.503


He was a comedian from Australia who had Dame Edna as a drag queen, who was a very famous drag queen in the early 90s.00:55:08.503 --> 00:55:18.048


Doreen's going to be sort of like that, except Doreen can sing.00:55:18.048 --> 00:55:22.291


Dame Edna sang, but she wasn't really a singer, but Doreen's yeah, so I'm excited for that.00:55:22.311 --> 00:55:25.581


Is Doreen doing live shows or is Doreen going to do like a video show?00:55:26.490 --> 00:55:28.297


We're not sure how it's going to go yet.00:55:28.418 --> 00:55:28.818


Okay.00:55:29.170 --> 00:55:32.981


I have so many, so many projects going at the same time.00:55:32.981 --> 00:55:34.034


Yeah, you have a full plate.00:55:35.369 --> 00:55:55.778


So, speaking of Doreen, I know that you and I talked about this before we started recording, but just because I think the queer community can probably identify a lot with Doreen too, but there's specific struggles when it comes to narcissism and with the queer community, can you just jump into a little bit about that specifically.00:55:56.320 --> 00:56:01.701


Yeah Well, we talked about narcissism being disconnection and living in secrecy.00:56:01.701 --> 00:56:19.954


This happens to a lot of people If you're growing up in a family system where it doesn't feel acceptable to be open about how you're experiencing your sexuality or your gender, or if you feel like in your community, you end up hiding your true experience from others and I did that myself.00:56:19.954 --> 00:56:28.672


I was absolutely hiding my true experience from others and you end up living in secret, which is exactly what a narcissist is doing.00:56:28.672 --> 00:56:34.297


They're living in secret, and to keep that secret up, you end up having narcissistic defenses that develop over time.00:56:34.297 --> 00:56:40.918


So living in the closet itself causes us to need narcissistic defenses because no one's really there with us on our team.00:56:40.918 --> 00:56:46.030


So if no one's really on our team, we need to do strategies like oh, I don't need them anyway.00:56:46.030 --> 00:56:50.606


Or oh, I'm smarter than them anyway, or I can do everything better than them.00:56:50.606 --> 00:57:10.184


They often end up in grandiose strategies to feel okay because they're so alone and they leave reality a little bit because they're so alone, but also valuing things that are superficial because they are denying their true identity and they're not feeling acceptable.00:57:10.610 --> 00:57:13.657


And because you're not feeling acceptable, there's shame.00:57:13.657 --> 00:57:17.132


There can be so much shame there I was drowning in shame.00:57:17.132 --> 00:57:22.916


I literally thought everybody in my life would reject me if they knew I was attracted to the same sex.00:57:22.916 --> 00:57:27.295


That was how I felt about it, and I was going to an evangelical church that told me it was evil.00:57:27.295 --> 00:57:31.581


So I had this huge shame that I was avoiding.00:57:31.581 --> 00:57:34.635


And that's what happens with narcissism they're avoiding shame.00:57:34.635 --> 00:57:39.550


So if you force someone to live in shame, then they're avoiding this emotion.00:57:39.550 --> 00:57:50.911


They end up avoiding all the emotions around shame as well, which means they end up not feeling this whole range of emotions, which means they have a lack of empathy because they're avoiding this whole set of emotions.00:57:50.911 --> 00:57:55.773


So if I'm not letting myself feel shame, I'm not going to feel ashamed of the thing I just did to you either.00:57:55.773 --> 00:58:02.733


It's much easier for them to ghost each other and to just treat each other with a total lack of empathy.00:58:03.074 --> 00:58:05.759


If I've learned not to feel things, I'm not feeling things with you.00:58:05.759 --> 00:58:09.110


If I've learned not to feel sad, then I'm not going to feel sad with you.00:58:09.110 --> 00:58:12.599


If I've made you sad and I don't even recognize that I've made you sad.00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:24.684


So there can be this detachment and there is quite a lot of narcissism in the LGBTQ community and learning to love each other is also the work there, creating love loops.00:58:24.684 --> 00:58:26.027


And we're getting better.00:58:26.027 --> 00:58:30.900


We've been getting better in the last couple of decades because we're not so rejected, right?00:58:30.900 --> 00:58:40.099


We understand now that we can't change someone's sexuality just by that kind of identification, but we can save someone's life when they don't feel like they're absolutely alone in the world.00:58:40.099 --> 00:58:42.610


Because I did try to kill myself.00:58:42.610 --> 00:58:51.842


I tried to kill myself more than once and that lack of belonging, that lack of self-acceptance, came from the lack of acceptance around me.00:58:51.842 --> 00:58:58.610


So that's why you know you should stand up for your trans neighbors, your LGBTQ neighbors and your migrant neighbors.00:58:58.971 --> 00:58:59.451


Who is.00:58:59.451 --> 00:59:10.179


If somebody wanted to get your book or eventually see Doreen or you know, whatever any of these things that you have, how can they get in touch with you or how can they follow you?00:59:11.449 --> 00:59:21.418


So the main website that maybe it'll be out by the time your episode's out, the Narcissism Recovery Project is the main website.00:59:21.418 --> 00:59:27.976


So the narcissismrecoveryprojectcom is where it's going to be the blanket for all the different books It'll have.00:59:27.976 --> 00:59:29.523


The United States of Disconnection.00:59:29.523 --> 00:59:35.061


I'm already working on a Canadian version called we're Not Immune, because we have a slightly different version of narcissism up here.00:59:35.342 --> 00:59:35.681


Okay.00:59:38.452 --> 00:59:55.079


And then I have some other countries in mind and also loveloopsnet or no org and also loveloopsnet or no org.00:59:55.079 --> 01:00:00.054


Loveloopsorg is really the main place for the Love Loops workbooks that are coming, literally being formatted some of them right now, but it'll all be attached.01:00:00.054 --> 01:00:02.559


You can go to either one and find both.01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:11.742


And Doreen's written through the book as the comedian, she's the comic relief in quite a few chapters.01:00:11.742 --> 01:00:16.882


It's a really different kind of book.01:00:16.882 --> 01:00:18.293


I'm excited for the workbooks too.01:00:18.293 --> 01:00:21.340


I feel like they're going to be interesting.01:00:21.340 --> 01:00:25.739


Not just a workbook, it's also something that's going to be enjoyable.01:00:27.130 --> 01:00:39.650


In these workbooks I'm making celebrity identifications, Because a lot of celebrities have talked about their narcissistic relationships and their own struggles with narcissism or mental health.01:00:39.650 --> 01:00:42.400


So I've included quite a few little stories.01:00:42.400 --> 01:00:52.614


Like Adele, she clearly had a narcissist partner before she wrote 21, because pretty much all those songs are written about a narcissistic partner and quite a few people.01:00:52.614 --> 01:00:54.614


So there's quotes by people throughout the book.01:00:54.614 --> 01:00:59.103


You know, to keep that little identification like oh, her too, oh, them too, oh, wow.01:00:59.590 --> 01:01:04.762


And there's also top 10 lists to make it easier to digest.01:01:04.762 --> 01:01:15.204


Lists to make it easier to digest the top 10 things that are toxic behaviors, the top 10 things that are most likely for a daughter of a narcissist to suffer from, or the top 10.01:01:15.204 --> 01:01:21.110


I've just put a whole bunch of top 10 lists and made it a lot more digestible, so I'm really excited for these books.01:01:21.110 --> 01:01:23.275


I hope they cause a big stir.01:01:23.275 --> 01:01:28.954


A lot of them are going to be free and published, so you can download it and print it.01:01:28.954 --> 01:01:32.532


But if you want the pretty one, you can click on Amazon and buy it from there too.01:01:33.172 --> 01:01:33.675


And then.01:01:33.675 --> 01:01:48.614


So I guess, before we close, is there any parting ideas, thoughts or advice that you want to share, or advice that you want to share.01:01:49.215 --> 01:02:08.768


Really, the main thing is we are just a bunch of human pack animals and I do believe our natural state is loving each other and I think love and kindness is actually a healthy way to be living with our neighbors and our friends and the people around us and the people on the bus and the people on the subway.01:02:08.768 --> 01:02:18.722


I really think and fear pulls us apart and we need to start counteracting the fear by learning who people are, by introducing ourselves to our neighbors.01:02:18.722 --> 01:02:21.753


Introduce yourself to your neighbors.01:02:21.753 --> 01:02:23.518


There's one way you can do it.01:02:23.518 --> 01:02:25.882


We're not meant to live independently.01:02:25.882 --> 01:02:28.554


We do better in community.01:02:28.554 --> 01:02:29.777


We absolutely do.01:02:29.777 --> 01:02:34.280


And some people go to church and they find a loving community and they think, oh, it only happens at church.01:02:34.280 --> 01:02:36.489


No, it can happen anywhere.01:02:36.489 --> 01:02:37.311


You love each other.01:02:37.311 --> 01:02:41.826


It's just we've forgotten how to do it and that we should.01:02:41.826 --> 01:02:45.036


But the more we do it, the more they love us back.01:02:45.036 --> 01:02:54.797


Like, really, you can make the grocery store more fun just by being, you know, just by being friendly as you're going through it, instead of cold and detached, absolutely.01:02:55.699 --> 01:02:56.382


That was beautiful.01:02:56.382 --> 01:02:57.331


Thank you so much.01:02:58.414 --> 01:02:59.458


Thank you so much, Ingrid.01:02:59.458 --> 01:03:00.942


You can hear I can talk for a few hours.01:03:02.391 --> 01:03:04.175


I mean, we'll keep talking as soon as I hit stop.01:03:04.175 --> 01:03:07.610


But yeah, thank you so much for coming on.01:03:08.092 --> 01:03:08.432


Pleasure.01:03:09.474 --> 01:03:13.911


Thank you again, darren, for joining me today and thank you, warriors, for listening.01:03:13.911 --> 01:03:20.331


You can find all of the links Darren was referring to, along with his one in three profile, listed in the show notes.01:03:20.331 --> 01:03:34.922


Before we wrap up, I need to say this one more time Before we wrap up, I need to say this one more time If you think you are in a relationship with a narcissist or anyone who is abusive, please make plans to leave as soon as possible.01:03:34.922 --> 01:03:39.605


Protect yourself and protect anyone else who may be affected.01:03:39.605 --> 01:03:43.168


You cannot change the abuser.01:03:43.168 --> 01:03:46.791


The abuse will escalate.01:03:46.791 --> 01:03:52.182


If there is any hope for change, leave that up to the professionals, not you.01:03:52.182 --> 01:03:54.054


You deserve peace.01:03:54.054 --> 01:03:56.094


You deserve safety.01:03:56.094 --> 01:03:58.721


Got it Good.01:03:58.721 --> 01:04:02.300


I'll be back next week with another episode for you.01:04:02.300 --> 01:04:20.543


Until then, wherever you are in your journey, always remember you are not alone.01:04:21.025 --> 01:04:23.666


I N the number three podcastcom.01:04:23.666 --> 01:04:30.021


Follow one in three on Instagram, facebook and Twitter at one in three podcast to help me out.01:04:30.021 --> 01:04:32.918


Please remember to rate, review and subscribe.01:04:32.918 --> 01:04:38.809


One in three is a 0.5 Pinoy production music written and performed by Tim Crow.01:04:38.809 --> 01:04:52.396


© transcript Emily Beynon.