83-Navigating Legal Abuse: Strategies for High-Conflict Divorce With Lisa Johnson

WEBVTT

00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.166
Hi warriors, welcome to One in Three.

00:00:02.166 --> 00:00:03.491
I'm your host, ingrid.

00:00:03.491 --> 00:00:09.150
Leaving a domestic violence relationship doesn't necessarily mean the challenges are over.

00:00:09.150 --> 00:00:26.731
It doesn't make navigating the legal system any easier either, when it comes time to form your team, build a strategy and face the process head on it can seem so overwhelming, making an already frightening situation seem impossible.

00:00:26.731 --> 00:00:31.931
That's why experts like today's guest are so important.

00:00:31.931 --> 00:00:47.054
I'm excited to introduce Lisa Johnson, a certified domestic violence advocate high conflict, divorced strategist and co-founder of Been there Got Out.

00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:50.646
Hi Lisa, Welcome to One in Three.

00:00:50.646 --> 00:00:54.060
I have been looking forward to this episode for a very long time.

00:00:54.161 --> 00:00:55.683
Me too, I'm excited.

00:00:56.866 --> 00:01:01.643
I have quite a few friends who have been asking about when this is going to be going live.

00:01:01.643 --> 00:01:05.271
Already I guess we need to say what we're talking about.

00:01:05.271 --> 00:01:12.233
So go ahead and give a background of your topic and, I guess, why you got into it too, if you don't mind.

00:01:12.659 --> 00:01:14.704
Yeah, sure, I mean big question.

00:01:14.704 --> 00:01:16.689
I'll try to keep it as concise as possible.

00:01:16.689 --> 00:01:19.105
So yeah, my name is Lisa Johnson.

00:01:19.265 --> 00:01:35.971
I am the female half of Been there Got Out and I'm a high conflict divorce strategist who specializes in something called legal abuse and that's where our clients' exes basically weaponize the justice system to wear us down and bleed us dry financially.

00:01:35.971 --> 00:01:52.834
So Chris and I my partner work with the most extreme divorces, separations, custody battles and co-parenting hell and we try to save our clients time, money and energy throughout the muck of family court and thereafter.

00:01:52.834 --> 00:01:59.900
So we really get into a lot of the granular stuff Like we're not typical what you imagine divorce coaches.

00:01:59.900 --> 00:02:02.665
We don't focus on like how life is much better on the other side.

00:02:02.665 --> 00:02:17.594
We carry you through the court stuff again, like working with an attorney and, if you have run out of money, like I did, then representing yourself successfully.

00:02:17.594 --> 00:02:21.670
So I basically spent 10 years in the legal system with my own case.

00:02:21.670 --> 00:02:27.342
Most of that was post-judgment, meaning after the divorce was finalized.

00:02:27.342 --> 00:02:39.262
It took one year and $100,000 to get out of that marriage and then the rest was post-judgment, which was about 100 court appearances, like I said, in about seven and a half years in two states.

00:02:39.262 --> 00:02:42.468
And then my ex appealed four times.

00:02:42.468 --> 00:03:00.007
I represented myself at the appellate level and the case was so notable that it got published as case law in Connecticut, which is, I always say, it's a huge honor for an attorney, and I've been told that no one's ever heard of a pro se or self-represented litigant like me being published.

00:03:00.007 --> 00:03:02.609
So I'm always like, really, really proud of that.

00:03:03.060 --> 00:03:16.475
And then I also gave live testimony which helped pass something called Jennifer's Law, which is the name of the law that expanded my state's legal definition of domestic violence to include coercive control.

00:03:16.475 --> 00:03:22.112
So that's all that invisible abuse that people don't usually take as seriously when they're like, well, at least they didn't hit you.

00:03:22.112 --> 00:03:28.569
Well, a lot of coercive control and invisible abuse doesn't leave scars, but it's a lot worse.

00:03:28.569 --> 00:03:36.590
So Maine just became, I think, the 10th or 11th state just a few days ago to pass coercive control legislation.

00:03:36.590 --> 00:03:43.468
And then my ex decided to sue Chris and I for $4 million in defamation in civil court.

00:03:43.468 --> 00:03:51.088
And that was like year nine in court and I just was like, of course, you know, you can't just leave us alone.

00:03:51.088 --> 00:03:54.181
So we got that taken care of ourselves.

00:03:54.181 --> 00:03:55.084
It took a few months.

00:03:55.084 --> 00:03:58.681
I was terrified, even though everybody told me not to worry and we got that thrown out.

00:03:59.201 --> 00:04:03.288
And then our first baby came out in 2023.

00:04:03.288 --> 00:04:04.169
It was our first book.

00:04:04.169 --> 00:04:11.448
It's called Been there, got Out Toxic Relationships, high Conflict Divorce and how to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances.

00:04:11.448 --> 00:04:16.012
And our current book is called when your Ex Turns the Kids Against you.

00:04:16.012 --> 00:04:18.848
That's coming out early 2026.

00:04:18.848 --> 00:04:28.454
And that's about the topic of whatever you want to call parental alienation, abuse by proxy coercive control, poisoning the well.

00:04:28.454 --> 00:04:44.588
But that is something we see more than almost anything else in the extreme divorce and post-judgment world, where people are using children to punish their exes, and it is just horrific.

00:04:44.588 --> 00:04:56.345
It is one of the most heartbreaking things that we see and, according to statistics, about 20 to 22 million divorced parents in America and Canada alone are experiencing this.

00:04:56.586 --> 00:04:57.127
That's terrible.

00:04:57.127 --> 00:05:00.423
That's actually another topic that I really would love to get into.

00:05:00.423 --> 00:05:06.353
So maybe I'll have to have you back on because it is kind of a taboo topic.

00:05:06.353 --> 00:05:34.624
Because I guess I read one article where it was talking about how they were looking at it as the and not to say that the bad guy is always the dad or the good guy is always the mom, but like, for an example, the mom and just to use the term, good guy, bad guy, but the mom was trying to do what was best for the children but then she was being accused of alienating the father.

00:05:34.624 --> 00:05:38.773
But yeah, I'm not going to go on that tangent because I won't stop.

00:05:38.773 --> 00:06:01.908
But obviously, with your background, you have the expertise and the experience, the personal experience, to definitely be the person to come on and talk about legal abuse and navigating the legal system, going through all of this drama with these exes and it doesn't start in the courtroom, right.

00:06:01.908 --> 00:06:06.312
So when should somebody start preparing for this battle?

00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:17.827
Well, I mean legal abuse, and a person turning children against another parent starts often while you're still in the relationship.

00:06:17.827 --> 00:06:21.470
When I was getting well first of all, I was with my ex for 20 years.

00:06:21.470 --> 00:06:22.886
We were married for nearly 18.

00:06:22.886 --> 00:06:29.968
I never thought I would get a divorce and so for those last two years it was really.

00:06:29.968 --> 00:06:31.372
You know, that's a whole other story.

00:06:31.372 --> 00:06:36.173
But it became apparent that there were things that were irreparable.

00:06:36.173 --> 00:06:44.831
It became more painful to stay than to leave and I really took my time and thought I was being really careful with an exit plan.

00:06:44.831 --> 00:06:57.685
I really took my time and thought I was being really careful with an exit plan, and when I finally did talk to a divorce attorney who I ended up hiring, he said within 20 minutes of the consult yours is going to be a really bad case, yours is going to be one of the worst ones.

00:06:57.685 --> 00:06:58.985
And I was like what?

00:06:58.985 --> 00:07:03.466
Because in my head I thought my ex is a good guy, he's just done some bad things.

00:07:03.466 --> 00:07:13.742
And later I interviewed that attorney for our book and he didn't know at the time, he hadn't organized what he was thinking when he told me it would be bad.

00:07:13.742 --> 00:07:19.423
But we managed to break it down into a few different factors that indicate high-conflict divorce.

00:07:19.423 --> 00:07:48.309
And so one of the things that I didn't realize at the time and now it makes a lot of sense is when somebody has addiction or mental illness and I'm not talking about someone in recovery, that's completely different but when someone has a mental illness it means their judgment is impaired Same with addiction and so they're not thinking properly, they're not thinking logically, they're not thinking even in their own best interests and forget about the family and the children.

00:07:48.309 --> 00:07:52.891
So when you're dealing with someone like that, they make the process very, very difficult.

00:07:53.579 --> 00:08:05.572
Often we see with our client's exes, who usually have some kind of personality disorder, that they don't follow the normal cadence of what you'd expect from a separation or divorce.

00:08:05.572 --> 00:08:11.887
So most people think, okay, everybody is angry in the beginning and you want to kind of move on with your lives and things settle down.

00:08:11.887 --> 00:08:15.331
But the problem is with someone with one of those issues.

00:08:15.331 --> 00:08:21.567
They're not coming to the table doing what's fair and again, what's best for the kids in the family.

00:08:21.567 --> 00:08:25.199
They're doing what's best for themselves and it's very short-term thinking best for the kids in the family.

00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:27.204
They're doing what's best for themselves and it's very short term thinking.

00:08:27.204 --> 00:08:27.485
So they will.

00:08:27.485 --> 00:08:31.942
Often, you know, they're concerned with punishment because it's the end of the relationship.

00:08:31.942 --> 00:08:32.943
We can get into why?

00:08:32.943 --> 00:08:37.994
But they just ends up like exploding everything.

00:08:38.620 --> 00:08:40.927
My lawyer's paralegal said something that I'll never forget.

00:08:40.927 --> 00:08:47.788
She said once you leave, the power dynamic in the relationship increases tenfold and I would say probably more than that.

00:08:47.788 --> 00:09:01.822
So when somebody starts losing control and that's been the nature of the relationship they go a lot harder post-separation and many of our clients feel like, oh my gosh, I feel like it's worse than if I had stayed, because at least I had more control.

00:09:01.822 --> 00:09:09.708
Now it's up to strangers in the legal system and all these people are getting in the midst of my parenting and it's awful.

00:09:09.708 --> 00:09:18.984
And my ex, who used to not be around as much, is now fighting as hard as possible to hurt me the most by usually custody trying to take the kids away from me.

00:09:18.984 --> 00:09:21.692
So very difficult.

00:09:23.059 --> 00:09:29.246
Yeah, and I think that's one of the biggest fears too, too, is do I go forward with a divorce?

00:09:29.246 --> 00:09:33.511
If I do, who's going to be here to kind of be the buffer for the kids?

00:09:33.511 --> 00:09:38.356
Or how do I guarantee that I get the kids as much as I want?

00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:45.383
And you can't, and that's the thing.

00:09:45.383 --> 00:09:52.067
And in terms of being a buffer, I'm glad you brought that up because a lot of people think that they're staying for the sake of the kids and that they can be a buffer, especially when there's violence taking place.

00:09:52.067 --> 00:09:59.072
And again, I'm not just talking physical, I'm talking verbal, psychological, sexual, financial, all those things that people think.

00:09:59.072 --> 00:10:02.101
Well, if kids don't see it, they're not really understanding what's going on.

00:10:02.101 --> 00:10:04.604
If kids don't see it, they're not really understanding what's going on.

00:10:04.604 --> 00:10:15.331
But one of the worst things you can do is stay for the sake of the kids, because kids do feel like it and they do absorb that negative energy.

00:10:15.851 --> 00:10:27.466
Home is supposed to be a safe place and when kids are in a domestic violence situation, they compare it to being in a war zone, because the one place you think is safe is actually dangerous.

00:10:27.466 --> 00:10:33.081
So it is very harmful to kids to be in these unhealthy relationships.

00:10:33.081 --> 00:10:41.104
And not only that, but it also teaches them that the relationship their parents have is normal.

00:10:41.104 --> 00:10:50.067
So, no matter what you tell them, they're going to gravitate towards what's familiar and they're going to keep repeating those cycles.

00:10:50.067 --> 00:10:54.743
And also, you can't really be a buffer if you can't even protect yourself.

00:10:54.743 --> 00:10:57.249
So it's very complicated.

00:10:57.249 --> 00:10:58.913
It is not an easy decision.

00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:28.326
No, not at all, and one thing that I think is really important to understand is that when you do have the separate households, even if the abusive parent has custody, the children will learn what the safe, consistent home is versus the home where they don't feel comfortable, and I think that is a huge part of making sure that they're developing to understand what is normal and what is safe and what is acceptable behavior.

00:11:28.928 --> 00:11:38.039
Yeah, and the scary thing is so kids learn to do something called code switching, and I learned this term from a parenting coach named Mike Barsamian.

00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:43.735
He said that it's almost as though they're living in two different cultures, and so they learn to adjust themselves.

00:11:43.735 --> 00:11:45.442
They fawn, meaning they figure out how to be safe in two different cultures, and so they learn to adjust themselves.

00:11:45.442 --> 00:11:48.692
They fawn, meaning they figure out how to be safe in the different homes.

00:11:49.452 --> 00:12:11.282
The issue that a lot of our clients, who are all domestic violence men and women, dealing with is that sometimes children will align with an abuser because they see this parent as the more powerful one and they see what's happened to the safe parent, who's been discarded, rejected, like, terrorized, and so they think well, to keep myself safe, I have to align with that abusive parent.

00:12:11.282 --> 00:12:15.355
It's not that I love them more, but I have to keep myself safe.

00:12:15.355 --> 00:12:23.514
It's very, very difficult for a safe parent or a healthy parent to be like oh my gosh, why is my kid turning away from me?

00:12:23.514 --> 00:12:25.147
Like I was the one who raised them.

00:12:25.147 --> 00:12:26.625
I'm the like, don't they know?

00:12:26.625 --> 00:12:28.365
But think about yourself.

00:12:28.365 --> 00:12:31.328
We, as adults, were in these unhealthy relationships.

00:12:31.328 --> 00:12:32.686
We were brainwashed as well.

00:12:32.686 --> 00:12:39.847
A child doesn't even have the maturity or the frontal lobe in their brain development to be able to have proper judgment.

00:12:39.847 --> 00:12:41.888
So it is really, really complex.

00:12:43.940 --> 00:12:44.961
What do you do for that?

00:12:47.206 --> 00:12:50.952
So we talk about that a lot in our book that's coming out.

00:12:50.952 --> 00:13:13.028
There's a lot you can do, but it really starts with establishing strong bonds with your children consistently, as early as possible and, even if you haven't, just to make sure that you're able to spend quality time with them and build memories so that when they're hearing all the craziness from the other side, they have to learn to trust their judgment.

00:13:13.028 --> 00:13:34.308
So a lot of it involves helping a child develop critical thinking skills, helping them learn to advocate for themselves, helping them realize that they need to pay attention to their gut and to say like I know that this is true, even though an adult is telling me this helping a child learn to question things, not just with their other parent, but in general.

00:13:34.308 --> 00:13:59.004
There was a singer that I interviewed who her name is Tyra Juliet, and she wrote a book I think it's called the Sky is Red, and it's based on this game that we always have our clients play with really young kids, where you will be, let's say, taking a walk or spending time with them, and you deliberately make an observation that's false and you look at them like the sky is red and you want them to say what?

00:13:59.004 --> 00:14:00.009
The sky is not red.

00:14:00.009 --> 00:14:03.722
But if they don't question you, that's when you need to start saying do you agree with me?

00:14:03.722 --> 00:14:04.664
Is that right?

00:14:04.664 --> 00:14:05.046
Like what?

00:14:05.046 --> 00:14:08.413
You want them to start realizing what is reality?

00:14:08.413 --> 00:14:18.024
And even though you're a parent to question, you like to push back because that's one of the healthiest things for kids in this situation and in terms of establishing those bonds.

00:14:18.524 --> 00:14:30.207
There was a school psychologist that I interviewed named Dr Alina Boye, and she said that kids really want two things control and attention any age kids.

00:14:30.568 --> 00:14:42.311
So she said if you can spend 10 minutes a day getting onto their level doing something that they want, that they're leading with, even if it's a video game and you think video games are ridiculous let them lead.

00:14:42.311 --> 00:14:53.600
So they feel like they have some sense of agency in their lives and you're showing that you're there for them and you're willing to pay attention to what they want to do.

00:14:53.600 --> 00:15:11.370
Even for those few minutes will impact your relationship so much, because when you're dealing with an abusive parent on the other side, they don't really care about how anyone else feels or what anyone wants and they can't keep up that consistent routine of developing positive memories.

00:15:11.370 --> 00:15:16.006
So this is the foundation of a healthy relationship where your kids learn.

00:15:16.006 --> 00:15:20.102
I know what mom or I know what dad is, really like myself.

00:15:20.102 --> 00:15:34.774
So when that terror campaign comes about, all those poisonous messages or whatever it is they're doing to try to turn their kids onto their side, to create what's called a loyalty bind, then your kid will be a little bit less likely to fall for it.

00:15:37.701 --> 00:15:39.489
I'm taking notes ferociously here.

00:15:40.821 --> 00:15:41.922
I take lots of notes too.

00:15:43.004 --> 00:15:43.283
Love it.

00:15:43.283 --> 00:15:48.490
Okay, so obviously the abuser.

00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:59.894
Because they want to maintain their control, they are saying things to the children and then they're coming home to the other parent and sometimes they're telling that other parent what's being said about them.

00:15:59.894 --> 00:16:11.250
What is a way to navigate the conversation with your children to where you can let them know that that's not appropriate?

00:16:11.250 --> 00:16:15.102
But then you're also trying not to bad mouth the other parent because I don't know like.

00:16:15.102 --> 00:16:19.982
I just feel that you probably should not do that because you want them to come to their own conclusions.

00:16:19.982 --> 00:16:26.668
You don't want them to start feeling that, well, this parent's trying to make me think that way and that parent's trying to make me think the other way.

00:16:26.687 --> 00:16:27.669
Am.

00:16:27.730 --> 00:16:28.071
I right.

00:16:28.371 --> 00:16:38.347
Yeah, no, that's such a great question because people make a mistake, a big mistake with this, where the child is told something false, a poisonous message is about the other parent.

00:16:38.347 --> 00:16:46.913
They come back to the other parent and they say Daddy says that you're this, or Mommy says that you're this, and so your instinct is to be like that's not true and to defend yourself.

00:16:46.913 --> 00:16:48.554
Right, because the kid should know what's true.

00:16:48.554 --> 00:16:57.340
The problem is is that kids love generally both their parents and see both parents as an authority, and they think that authorities don't lie.

00:16:57.340 --> 00:17:06.265
So if one parent's telling them something false, then they go to the other parent and the other parent's telling them the opposite false, then they go to the other parent and the other parent's telling them the opposite.

00:17:06.265 --> 00:17:21.342
It's like I don't know who to believe and it also is an insult to my intelligence, especially older children, because they're like I can figure this out for myself, like don't tell me what I'm supposed to think.

00:17:21.342 --> 00:17:41.971
So instead, what's been recommended by a lot of therapists is, when a child comes to you and says these vicious things that you know are just coming straight from your ex out of their mouth, is to first pause and realize that part of this is your ex's attempt to trigger you, because generally when they say things like this, the kid says something to you and the child is paying attention to your reaction.

00:17:41.971 --> 00:17:45.231
When they go back to the other parent, the other parent will be like what happened is paying attention to your reaction.

00:17:45.231 --> 00:17:47.294
When they go back to the other parent, the other parent will be like what happened?

00:17:47.294 --> 00:17:50.163
So it's really like abuse by proxy, like they're getting at you through the child.

00:17:50.163 --> 00:17:58.347
So one thing that you can do is I mean, a lot of it involves self-regulation and realizing, like I cannot like take the bait here.

00:17:58.347 --> 00:18:09.493
But when the kid says that it's like a test, like what are you going to do is to kind of take it in and say, wow, you know, where did you get that from?

00:18:09.493 --> 00:18:11.728
Like do you think that's true?

00:18:11.728 --> 00:18:13.968
Like why do you believe that?

00:18:13.968 --> 00:18:15.926
I mean, you know me right.

00:18:15.926 --> 00:18:17.626
Like why would you say something like that?

00:18:17.626 --> 00:18:22.451
So instead of being afraid and being like I need to correct you the opposite, tell me more.

00:18:22.451 --> 00:18:25.308
And that helps them develop those critical thinking skills.

00:18:25.308 --> 00:18:26.522
So they're saying something.

00:18:26.542 --> 00:18:38.667
A lot of times they're angry or hurt and there's heartbreak underneath that hostility, because they don't know what's going on and they're so upset that you're not together anymore, even though it was awful when you were.

00:18:38.667 --> 00:18:42.967
Their lives are the ones that change the most, so they want to see your reaction.

00:18:42.967 --> 00:18:47.305
And so when you are not afraid and you're just like whoa, like tell me more about that.

00:18:47.305 --> 00:18:47.967
And it depends.

00:18:47.967 --> 00:18:55.520
Like if it's a little kid you'd be like okay, anyway, let's go, and you know you can distract them, let's go to the birthday party or whatever.

00:18:55.520 --> 00:19:02.162
But with older kids I would encourage them to keep talking until they run out of like reason.

00:19:02.162 --> 00:19:06.211
You know, like what makes you believe that, like I want to know.

00:19:06.211 --> 00:19:11.248
You don't say the other parent is right or wrong, you just say I want to hear what you have to say.

00:19:11.248 --> 00:19:15.920
And again, that validates their sense of agency and their ability to think for themselves.

00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.050
But you're encouraging them to go deeper and analyze.

00:19:19.050 --> 00:19:20.626
Like you're saying something to me.

00:19:20.626 --> 00:19:25.147
Tell me where it comes from, like what led you to believe this.

00:19:26.661 --> 00:19:34.162
So if that starts happening enough, say that parent then wants to do something to advocate more for their children.

00:19:34.162 --> 00:19:45.207
So now, like getting into the legal system, when, at what point is that parent able to say the divorce is already over?

00:19:45.207 --> 00:19:52.074
But then you know this is happening, like you were mentioning post-separation abuse, that this continues to happen.

00:19:52.074 --> 00:19:58.289
And now there's the concern for the children's well-being, but there's nothing provable.

00:19:58.289 --> 00:20:01.942
Like you know, it's not bruises, it's not.

00:20:01.942 --> 00:20:10.122
I can show you that this child's being physically abused, but there's a manipulation happening there and there's definitely an emotional and psychological component.

00:20:10.122 --> 00:20:12.707
What can that parent then do?

00:20:13.288 --> 00:20:13.528
Okay.

00:20:13.528 --> 00:20:33.789
So one of the things that we do more than anything with everybody is something we call strategic communication, where you are communicating only in writing with your ex and we always say you're writing to your ex but you're writing for an invisible audience because our clients are always in court or before like evaluators and guardian ad litems.

00:20:33.789 --> 00:20:50.471
So we're always like your goal is to always present as the best co-parent ever, but at the same time, you are documenting your ex's patterns of behavior over time and the impact the visible impact it has on your children as well as on your relationship with your children.

00:20:50.471 --> 00:21:08.469
One of the most important best interest or custody factors is which parent is likely to support the child's relationship with the other parent, because that child is half of each of you, and the flip side of that is is one parent attempting to undermine the child's relationship with the other parent.

00:21:08.469 --> 00:21:11.820
So that's where the whole alienation factors comes under.

00:21:11.820 --> 00:21:16.692
So let's say your child comes to you and says dad said this or mom said this.

00:21:16.692 --> 00:21:37.451
So we would follow it up with a written communication that basically and this is like very I mean, I'm only scratching the surface of strategic communication but we would say something like and again, you need to be very careful, because if you're reporting this back to your ex, if you feel like your child's going to be punished for telling you, you need to consider whether it's worth it.

00:21:37.451 --> 00:21:44.249
But you might want to say something like our son said that you told him blah, blah, blah.

00:21:44.249 --> 00:22:01.925
You just stating a fact, what your child said, and then we would put in something which Chris and I call the universal agreement, and it's a value that everybody believes that, even though your ex is not doing it, they can't disagree with it.

00:22:01.925 --> 00:22:04.008
And it's for that invisible audience.

00:22:04.008 --> 00:22:13.852
Then we'd say something like I'm sure we can both agree how important it is to support each other's relationship with our child, something like that.

00:22:13.852 --> 00:22:16.019
And you use your own voice and you fill in the names.

00:22:16.019 --> 00:22:23.054
Or I'm sure we can both agree how important it is to shield our child from any conflict between us.

00:22:23.054 --> 00:22:29.143
Shield our child from any conflict between us, and you leave it there.

00:22:29.163 --> 00:22:35.042
Now, this is setting up documentation for a pattern if this continues, because when you send something like this, you're kind of cornering them.

00:22:35.042 --> 00:22:44.362
First of all, the best exhibit that you can ever bring to court is your communication with your ex, and strategic communication basically turns hearsay into evidence.

00:22:44.362 --> 00:22:46.362
So, ingrid, you said you can't prove it.

00:22:46.362 --> 00:22:59.662
But when I'm writing to my ex and saying you know our kid said this happened, I'm not saying I know it's true or not, I'm just saying, if it did, I'm sure that we both wouldn't want something like this.

00:22:59.662 --> 00:23:02.826
We don't want to involve our kid in the conflict, we don't want to badmouth each other.

00:23:02.826 --> 00:23:23.467
But I'm not saying don't you do this because I don't know what happened, but I'm putting it out there for that invisible audience to start drawing conclusions if this continues Now, once in a while I mean people do things all the time once in a while, but our client sexes do this all the time, this insidious abuse that's psychological, that they think nobody's really noticing.

00:23:23.926 --> 00:23:26.630
So, as this continues, well, first of all, let me pause.

00:23:26.630 --> 00:23:40.786
So the reaction you'll get okay, the best reaction, which is the rarest, is they'll be like oh shoot, this is on the record, I better stop.

00:23:40.786 --> 00:23:41.990
Okay, probably unlikely, but that's what you want.

00:23:41.990 --> 00:23:44.838
You want this to get a result where they're like oh boy, they're smart.

00:23:44.838 --> 00:23:47.965
They'll be like I better stop doing this because this is going to hurt me.

00:23:47.965 --> 00:23:52.481
But more commonly is the silent treatment.

00:23:52.481 --> 00:23:54.147
This is the second most common, the silent treatment.

00:23:54.147 --> 00:24:00.421
So they say nothing and it's aggravating because you're sending messages and they keep doing it and nothing happens.

00:24:00.821 --> 00:24:21.031
But saying nothing helps strengthen your case because here you are confronting them about something that matters to the court, like a child has the right to have a relationship with two healthy parents and you're noting that this person's behavior is interfering or harming your relationship with your child, and they're not even disputing it.

00:24:21.031 --> 00:24:32.644
Then it's part of the record that becomes evidence and the most common thing we see is like a wall of rage text that's about how you're a terrible parent, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah has nothing to do.

00:24:32.644 --> 00:24:40.269
And again, that is very helpful for your case because they're not actually taking care of a problem which is a significant issue.

00:24:40.269 --> 00:24:52.182
Like you do not undermine or badmouth or whatever it is you're doing, psychologically abuse a child, and I interviewed this New York City attorney named Yoni Leveritz who said their anger is your gold.

00:24:52.804 --> 00:25:15.412
So, even though most of our clients have had PTSD when it comes to communicating with their ex, where it's like oh no, oh my gosh, what is it now, by seeing it a little bit differently, like, okay, I'm going to let them get angry at me because this is actually going to help my case, because I can show patterns of how, every time I bring this up, they just rage at me and claim that I'm a terrible parent.

00:25:15.412 --> 00:25:19.087
That just goes to show they're doing exactly what I'm saying.

00:25:19.087 --> 00:25:28.343
It sounds like they're doing and now I can start thinking about what to ask the court for in terms of relief and there's like a wide variety of things.

00:25:28.343 --> 00:25:34.163
But again it takes time and or like horrible things to happen to build a strong case.

00:25:34.163 --> 00:25:38.111
So again it's about patterns of behavior over time.

00:25:38.111 --> 00:25:42.803
This is not something like they do something a couple times and then, oh, I'm going to, you know, take custody away.

00:25:42.803 --> 00:25:44.384
That doesn't usually happen.

00:25:45.325 --> 00:25:51.730
Right, what other documents are helpful when going into this?

00:25:51.730 --> 00:26:00.457
Or I know, like recording is, that varies, I think, state to state on what you can record, what you can't record.

00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:06.923
Yeah, that's a great question, because people are always like I'm recording.

00:26:06.923 --> 00:26:07.906
I'm recording recording like what's going on?

00:26:07.906 --> 00:26:13.913
Okay, first of all, from interviewing a number of attorneys, judges don't really like recordings because they don't know the context.

00:26:13.913 --> 00:26:25.980
However, if you're dealing with a forensic investigator or a guardian ad litem, that can be helpful because you have more time to really let them examine what's going on and look for those patterns.

00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:27.625
Judges usually don't have time.

00:26:27.625 --> 00:26:38.127
They're like I don't know if AI did this or whatever it is, but someone who can really investigate those recordings might be helpful, but they're not as good as your communication with your ex.

00:26:38.307 --> 00:26:44.208
You need things that are provable, but other documentation, like our Family Wizard.

00:26:44.208 --> 00:26:49.873
Some of those parenting apps are great because they don't let someone alter, uh, what was sent.

00:26:49.873 --> 00:26:52.882
It shows timestamps of when something was opened or closed.

00:26:52.882 --> 00:27:00.788
Lawyers and courts can have access to those records, and also some of those phone calls or FaceTimes can be recorded when they're.

00:27:00.788 --> 00:27:16.390
I think it's when it's outgoing, though, but one of the things that children have a right to is privacy when they're speaking to another parent, when they're at the other parent's house, and so if things are being recorded and that other person is in the background making comments, or even a child looking to the side.

00:27:16.390 --> 00:27:21.266
I mean, you can see, usually when something is going on, that's really good evidence too.

00:27:23.800 --> 00:27:24.904
Okay, that makes sense too.

00:27:24.904 --> 00:27:36.955
So Typically, going into a court situation, the victim is still very victimized and it's a very difficult situation.

00:27:36.955 --> 00:27:43.680
What do you suggest they do to prepare themselves for that scenario?

00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:49.523
I mean, even like depositions or mediation all of that can be re-traumatizing to victims.

00:27:49.844 --> 00:27:50.723
Absolutely is.

00:27:50.723 --> 00:27:57.167
I mean and that's why it's so important to understand that it is going to be re-traumatizing.

00:27:57.167 --> 00:28:03.123
People are always like, oh, I'm praying the judge sees, or I'm hoping my ex's attorney doesn't attack me.

00:28:03.123 --> 00:28:09.798
We always plan they're going to attack you, you are going to get bullied, you're going to be asked some really difficult questions.

00:28:09.798 --> 00:28:19.763
You're going to be asked about private things that you told your ex when you were still together that you never thought they would use against you.

00:28:19.763 --> 00:28:20.467
So we basically prepare for that.

00:28:20.467 --> 00:28:28.934
It's like okay, how are we going to answer a question as concisely as possible and not give the other side something to like twist around into something?

00:28:28.934 --> 00:28:42.042
But the main thing that we want to do with our clients is to keep them as calm as possible, not by saying calm down, because that is so triggering, but by helping them be really focused and organized.

00:28:42.042 --> 00:28:56.752
And so one of the things we really work on with clients is targeted documentation where we'll talk about like, let's say, it's a custody case, here are the different best interest factors, here's what alienation means, here's where we could build the strongest narrative for you.

00:28:56.752 --> 00:28:59.902
And then we get into what do you think your ex is going to attack you with.

00:28:59.902 --> 00:29:04.932
I mean, you know and they always know what their ex is going to attack them with, because it's been happening the whole time.

00:29:04.932 --> 00:29:08.739
But where are points of weakness and how can we turn it around?

00:29:08.739 --> 00:29:11.964
How can we stay focused on the things that matter?

00:29:11.964 --> 00:29:22.673
We do a lot of role playing with them just to make them less afraid, but not to be like oh, I just hope there's no surprises, there's not going to be any surprises, it's just going to be really hellish.

00:29:22.673 --> 00:29:24.435
You're going to get through it.

00:29:24.435 --> 00:29:33.932
And then we often meet afterward to sort of decompress, because for me, all those times in court, the night before court I couldn't sleep.

00:29:33.932 --> 00:29:42.061
But then, like the two or three nights after, I couldn't sleep because my brain was processing what had happened in the court and being like, did I say the wrong thing?

00:29:42.061 --> 00:29:43.212
Like should I have done it differently?

00:29:43.212 --> 00:29:45.097
What did the judge mean by that?

00:29:45.097 --> 00:29:47.212
And the body language, and just like panicking.

00:29:47.212 --> 00:29:55.878
And sometimes it takes another person to be like, okay, let's go through it, and you always feel like you did worse than you thought you did.

00:29:55.878 --> 00:30:04.663
Yeah, so it's helpful to have someone kind of like walk through what happened and again like calm down and translate what went on.

00:30:04.911 --> 00:30:05.751
We had a client once.

00:30:05.751 --> 00:30:09.118
We thought she was mentally ill.

00:30:09.118 --> 00:30:11.104
I mean, we do have some mentally ill clients.

00:30:11.104 --> 00:30:12.212
We thought she was mentally ill.

00:30:12.212 --> 00:30:13.415
I mean we do have some mentally ill clients.

00:30:13.415 --> 00:30:16.885
But she was so fixated on how, like the judge was not paying attention.

00:30:16.885 --> 00:30:19.634
This had gone on and on for years Like nobody was listening.

00:30:19.634 --> 00:30:25.337
And that's a really common feeling because it's true, but she just couldn't get past like nobody's listening.

00:30:25.377 --> 00:30:28.576
My kid has like this medical issue and it's really serious.

00:30:28.576 --> 00:30:34.516
And then at some point we went over her and we meet virtually with everybody, so it's like on something like Zoom.

00:30:34.516 --> 00:30:41.290
So we're like can you pull up your orders, like always have your orders in your parenting plan near, near your computer, like let's look through it.

00:30:41.290 --> 00:31:03.575
She hadn't even realized that she won final legal decision making on medical, that she had been listened to, that a judge had already given her the power, because she was so traumatized by never being listened that like she had had this power for months that her ex had to report to her that they had come down because she just hadn't been able to process it.

00:31:03.575 --> 00:31:22.837
So I think it's important again to remember like sometimes your brain is already like again that trauma like takes over things, and it is important to get other people to help you process it, not necessarily just your friends, who don't understand the way that the court system works, and sometimes therapists don't understand either.

00:31:22.837 --> 00:31:24.454
Often therapists don't understand.

00:31:26.140 --> 00:31:26.320
Right.

00:31:26.320 --> 00:31:35.147
So, actually speaking of therapists, do you think that they play a good role with either the victim or even the children?

00:31:35.147 --> 00:31:37.434
Oh, definitely, if you get the children into therapy.

00:31:38.097 --> 00:31:38.640
Absolutely.

00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:47.549
I mean so we always talk about like a team approach when it comes to these kinds of cases, because they are so difficult and they go on for years, so you need a team of support.

00:31:47.549 --> 00:31:56.820
So we often talk about it like the person is like the surface of the table and there's different legs that support them, so friends and family, if you have them.

00:31:56.820 --> 00:32:00.597
A lot of our clients have been isolated or they come from toxic families of origin.

00:32:00.597 --> 00:32:11.217
If you have them, they love you and they want to support you, but they don't really understand what's going on and they might inadvertently make comments that are very hurtful, like well, why'd you stay so long?

00:32:11.217 --> 00:32:13.820
Or I never thought you, of all people, would fall for it.

00:32:13.820 --> 00:32:15.243
So that's just one leg.

00:32:15.243 --> 00:32:22.090
Then you have your lawyer, who's your ally and advocate but not your therapist, and cannot be there for every little thing.

00:32:22.090 --> 00:32:30.676
And a lot of us, like I did, leaned on my lawyer too much and spent way too much money and then so again they have to stay in their lane.

00:32:30.676 --> 00:32:45.914
A therapist can be great, but their job is to help you heal and some therapists give our clients like horrific legal advice which could really and has really harmed them in court Because they'll be like oh, just don't answer, oh, just do this.

00:32:46.451 --> 00:32:52.256
And like, we recently had a client who she got her kid, a therapist, and the therapist this is it.

00:32:52.256 --> 00:32:54.535
Their divorce took like a year and a half.

00:32:54.535 --> 00:32:57.221
They settled, it was done.

00:32:57.221 --> 00:33:02.029
And the therapist said to her son, who was 13, you don't need to follow the court order.

00:33:02.029 --> 00:33:04.736
If you don't want to visit your dad, Just don't do it.

00:33:04.736 --> 00:33:10.071
And then you know the police will be called and your mom will have to go to court again, but you don't need to do it.

00:33:10.071 --> 00:33:11.734
And our client was like what?

00:33:11.734 --> 00:33:14.760
And then she told me I said, no, don't you dare.

00:33:14.760 --> 00:33:17.854
Like you don't and I would get away from that therapist.

00:33:17.854 --> 00:33:19.759
That is so outrageous.

00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:26.461
And then the therapist made her feel like she was a bad parent for not protecting her teenager.

00:33:26.461 --> 00:33:29.653
And I was just like, oh my gosh, this is, this is terrible.

00:33:29.653 --> 00:33:37.823
Like, no, no, Like that therapist does not understand, like the way that that's a court order, Like you're going to get in big trouble.

00:33:38.103 --> 00:33:40.465
No, you can't go violating court orders.

00:33:40.465 --> 00:34:03.615
Well, and that, I think, is a part, then, where people get stuck, where, if there's a court ruling and they feel that it's truly, truly even dangerous, maybe for their kids, and then where do they draw the line of being assertive versus now the court is thinking they're aggressive and, you know, may have more consequences.

00:34:04.597 --> 00:34:04.898
Yeah.

00:34:04.898 --> 00:34:13.443
So my partner Chris, he's really good with coming up with quotes and he came up with one that says if you present as mama bear, you're going to get bitten by the system.

00:34:13.443 --> 00:34:32.219
So because we see a lot of more, a lot of women who are very protective parents and they're just like I'm going to come in and my kid needs this and this, and then they end up losing custody because they don't understand what best interest factors mean and the law and also the system that they're in.

00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:33.880
You need to realize.

00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:38.927
I often say it's like the Wizard of Oz, like the judge is the wizard and you're Dorothy.

00:34:38.927 --> 00:34:43.021
You do not come in telling the judge how to do his or her job.

00:34:43.021 --> 00:34:44.836
That's going to be a really bad look.

00:34:45.431 --> 00:34:52.858
So in terms of protecting your child, it's a fine line, like really understanding what alienation means.

00:34:52.858 --> 00:35:12.719
I think is very, very important because whatever happened between the two of you, you need to understand that the courts believe and most people therapists, everybody believes that a child has a right to two healthy parents If you feel that your ex is unhealthy and we know that they are, and especially with what happened with you.

00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:27.362
But domestic violence is separate from custody factors and so if you're going to go in there and say your ex needs to be kept away from your children, you better have some really powerful evidence, convictions, police reports.

00:35:27.362 --> 00:35:34.713
But understand that even people in jail have a right to be part of their children's lives, as long as they're kept safe.

00:35:34.713 --> 00:35:49.335
So that's why people often will figure out some kind of step-up plan like a parenting plan with supervised visitation, things being monitored, testing for drugs and alcohol.

00:35:49.335 --> 00:35:57.000
I mean we have seen very I mean we only deal with high conflict cases and we've done hundreds in the past few years.

00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:05.563
We've only seen a couple where a parent had no rights and we had one case where the parent actually wrote away their parental rights.

00:36:06.130 --> 00:36:14.304
But it is extremely rare and often people think, well, I want my kids to have less time because I want to keep them safer.

00:36:14.304 --> 00:36:21.190
If your kid has time unsupervised time with that other parent, less time is not going to take away the problem.

00:36:21.190 --> 00:36:35.777
So there's things that you can do in your relationship with your kids and teaching them how to advocate, advocate and often kids in these situations have to develop very advanced social, emotional skills revolving around boundaries.

00:36:35.777 --> 00:36:39.692
Because they're dealing with their own parent, they learn to keep themselves safe.

00:36:39.692 --> 00:36:40.974
It's not.

00:36:40.974 --> 00:36:44.422
Again, it's really complex, it's not easy and it's very scary.

00:36:44.422 --> 00:36:49.719
If you really feel worried about it, like you need to have really strong evidence.

00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:53.204
Or we want our clients to be the proactive problem solvers.

00:36:53.204 --> 00:37:02.661
Come in with some ideas with how your ex still can communicate with your children, where you're showing you're still trying to do what you can to support the kid's relationship.

00:37:02.829 --> 00:37:07.362
But safety, that universal agreement, everybody wants our kids to be safe.

00:37:07.362 --> 00:37:13.233
So how are we going to all work together to make sure this usually very young child is safe?

00:37:13.233 --> 00:37:14.675
Or a kid with special needs?

00:37:14.675 --> 00:37:17.963
How can we keep them safe but still allow access?

00:37:17.963 --> 00:37:25.632
So there's ways to craft arguments, but again, you want to align with the things that the court cares about.

00:37:25.932 --> 00:37:29.483
A big argument that's very strong is talking about a child's consistency, stability and routine.

00:37:29.483 --> 00:37:31.469
So right up there with supporting the child's consistency, stability and routine.

00:37:31.469 --> 00:37:34.882
So right up there with supporting the child's relationship with both.

00:37:34.882 --> 00:37:41.963
It's like, is something in the schedule or something that's happening with your ex disrupting your child's routine?

00:37:41.963 --> 00:37:46.851
But again, that major value of like everybody wants a child to have access to both parents.

00:37:46.851 --> 00:37:56.775
Everybody wants a child to have access to both parents unless, again, there's significant evidence of harm directly to the child.

00:37:57.416 --> 00:38:12.362
We have a client whose ex broke her arm while she was holding her baby and he was kept away from the kids for a while and now he's fighting back and the kids are older and it's like a whole new thing, you know.

00:38:12.362 --> 00:38:19.744
So, the more time that passes, things get we call them stale and it's astonishing.

00:38:19.744 --> 00:38:24.186
But the people are like, well, you know, like, yeah, that was really bad.

00:38:24.186 --> 00:38:37.284
But oh, they took anger management or oh, they did this, they did all these things, so we're going to give them more chances, and so that's why it's so important for you to get some guardrails in there and to keep arguing really hard.

00:38:37.284 --> 00:38:41.882
But respectfully, you know, let's not forget and let's take a look at that.

00:38:41.882 --> 00:38:43.195
And how can we still make sure?

00:38:43.195 --> 00:38:43.677
Blah, blah, blah.

00:38:43.677 --> 00:38:45.574
It's very, very tricky.

00:38:46.730 --> 00:38:53.715
How do you know you have the right legal team, like if you are going into court and you're just not making the right progress?

00:38:53.715 --> 00:38:58.298
Or there's, you know, hard evidence that perhaps you know.

00:38:58.298 --> 00:39:08.286
Perhaps my ex shouldn't have majority of time because there's all this documentation that he or she has done all of these things wrong, but my legal team seems to be dropping the ball.

00:39:08.286 --> 00:39:12.010
Like, how do you?

00:39:12.050 --> 00:39:13.193
know if you have the right team or the wrong team.

00:39:13.193 --> 00:39:18.552
Okay, so one of the things that, like our clients and people are always saying I need to find a lawyer.

00:39:18.552 --> 00:39:21.079
Do you know a lawyer who understands this stuff?

00:39:21.079 --> 00:39:23.652
And we often say it's not.

00:39:23.652 --> 00:39:28.101
Like, most lawyers don't deal with a huge percentage of high conflict cases.

00:39:28.101 --> 00:39:39.260
We know a couple that do we call them unicorns, but most of them really don't have tons of experience, because these cases are few and far between, even though for us it feels like that's all there is, because that's all we deal with.

00:39:39.260 --> 00:39:56.117
So it's important for you to do something which we call taking strategic oversight of your case and running your case like a business and realizing that no lawyer is going to know as much as you do in terms of your family and nobody cares as much as you do.

00:39:56.117 --> 00:40:18.760
So the burden is on you to really step up and understand what certain laws are, what the custody factors are, putting together really clear, concise timelines, aligning it with things that matter to the court and giving it to your lawyer so that they basically just translate your case into the law and do as good a job as they can.

00:40:19.590 --> 00:40:26.724
One of the things that our clients often face are lawyers who do not communicate with them, who don't answer, and they're freaking out.

00:40:26.724 --> 00:40:28.096
They're like what's happening?

00:40:28.096 --> 00:40:29.635
Why aren't we doing this?

00:40:29.635 --> 00:40:31.021
If you have a lawyer who's not communicating and you're saying what's happening?

00:40:31.021 --> 00:40:31.445
Why aren't we doing this?

00:40:31.445 --> 00:40:40.318
If you have a lawyer who's not communicating and you're saying can you please help me understand why you're not filing that motion and you're not getting answers?

00:40:40.378 --> 00:40:45.414
That's a problem, because your lawyers, or your team, needs to be your allies and your advocates.

00:40:45.414 --> 00:40:58.097
It doesn't mean that you run the show and you tell them how to do their jobs, but if you're bringing up something that seems to make sense and they're saying absolutely not, you need to understand why.

00:40:58.097 --> 00:41:01.519
You need to be able to sleep at night to feel like they've got you.

00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:08.043
They're not just dismissing how you feel, because these are our families and our children.

00:41:08.043 --> 00:41:09.936
This is the most important thing.

00:41:09.936 --> 00:41:12.411
So you need to feel like your lawyer's on your side.

00:41:12.411 --> 00:41:16.442
That's like a big part of it is feeling like I can trust my attorney.

00:41:16.442 --> 00:41:19.094
If you do not trust your attorney, that's a problem.

00:41:20.697 --> 00:41:22.661
What about guardian ad litems?

00:41:22.661 --> 00:41:31.376
If they're a court appointed guardian ad litem and you feel they're not properly advocating for the children, are there steps that you can take?

00:41:38.090 --> 00:41:38.891
So that's, you know, guardian ad litems.

00:41:38.891 --> 00:41:56.369
There's such a wide range because there's some that are awesome, especially ones that have a background in psychology and or law enforcement, ones who are forensics, who really dig deeply and take the time and write very detailed reports and have meetings with you, your ex, your kids, the children's therapist, the collaterals, which means the witnesses.

00:41:56.369 --> 00:41:58.778
Those are like the good ones usually.

00:41:58.778 --> 00:42:13.097
But there's some that don't do anything, that like months and months pass and they haven't met with you, they don't get back to you, they're sending you bills like they haven't met with your kids for a year and a half and they're making a report.

00:42:13.097 --> 00:42:17.501
So when it's court-appointed it's hard because you don't have a say in it.

00:42:17.501 --> 00:42:30.411
But if you, let's say, you get a bad report which happens you have the opportunity or you should have the opportunity to and if you have a lawyer, have your lawyer cross-examine the guardian ad litem.

00:42:30.411 --> 00:42:47.262
One thing we really don't recommend is filing a complaint against a GAL, a guardian ad litem, while they're still active on your case, because we've had clients that met us after they did that and it did not go well because you've really disrespected and challenged their authority.

00:42:47.650 --> 00:42:59.572
So there's ways that you can try to work with certain guardian ad litems, but you have to understand that they feel like they're professionals and they need to be able to do their job.

00:42:59.572 --> 00:43:06.293
You don't want to pound them over the head with all your stuff and be like don't you see, can't you understand?

00:43:06.293 --> 00:43:07.115
That looks bad.

00:43:07.115 --> 00:43:19.804
So it's like trying to have a balance of respect for their job but also being like if there's concerns I have, I have to present them properly, because it's all about persuasion and credibility.

00:43:19.804 --> 00:43:21.235
I need this person to listen to me.

00:43:21.235 --> 00:43:24.018
I can't come with guns blazing or I'm just going to turn them off.

00:43:24.018 --> 00:43:28.442
So I have to do it delicately and realize there's egos involved.

00:43:28.442 --> 00:43:35.842
And if I cannot get through to this guardian ad litem and I get a bad report, then at least I can cross-examine them.

00:43:37.713 --> 00:43:41.061
But, don't file complaints against guardian ad litem Okay.

00:43:41.061 --> 00:43:45.641
Maybe later, when the case is over and you're away from them, but not while they still have power.

00:43:45.641 --> 00:43:52.902
Judges listen to them 85% and more of the time, so you cannot afford to make them your enemy.

00:43:53.963 --> 00:44:05.478
Okay, so pretty much if you know what your guardian ad litem stance is, that's more or less going to be what the final ruling is, because the judge weighs so heavily on them, yeah not always.

00:44:05.619 --> 00:44:06.300
Not always.

00:44:06.300 --> 00:44:09.612
We've had cases like in the UK, one of our clients in particular.

00:44:09.612 --> 00:44:19.621
There was some very creepy abuse, I think I'll say, going on between the other parent and one of the children and that they had a social worker that was like a guardian ad litem who was making observations and made a report.

00:44:19.621 --> 00:44:25.498
Oh, the other parent and one of the children and that they had a social worker that was like a guardian ad litem who was making observations and made a report.

00:44:25.498 --> 00:44:28.954
Oh, the other side can we should start with overnights in a few months.

00:44:28.954 --> 00:44:41.079
And when they went before the judge, she was, of course, beside herself, she had her lawyer question and the judge said you know what, even though you've given me this analysis, I feel like I want to wait.

00:44:41.079 --> 00:44:43.063
I want more investigation.

00:44:43.063 --> 00:44:50.778
So it's not 100% of the time and I'm so thrilled that our client was able to be heard and she did it properly.

00:44:51.641 --> 00:44:52.643
Yeah, no kidding.

00:44:52.643 --> 00:44:53.954
Oh, that's terrifying.

00:44:54.110 --> 00:45:00.701
I know it really is, and that was one where we were like I mean up at night worried about that one.

00:45:01.202 --> 00:45:02.083
I imagine so.

00:45:02.083 --> 00:45:10.603
So I know we had talked before about alienation factors, and there's quite a few of them.

00:45:10.983 --> 00:45:11.164
Yeah.

00:45:12.389 --> 00:45:13.813
Do you want to and I don't?

00:45:13.813 --> 00:45:16.360
You don't have to go into full detail about all of them.

00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:20.802
I'm going to say no, that's going to be time-consuming, but can you just identify?

00:45:21.210 --> 00:45:25.635
Yeah, this is the kind of thing like we'll generally coach our clients on deeply, so I'll just go through them.

00:45:25.635 --> 00:45:39.280
So, first of all, these are based on what's called the Baker model and they were originated by a researcher and psychologist named Dr Amy Baker, and so the Baker model is often used to build an alienation case.

00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:41.833
I've interviewed Dr Amy Baker.

00:45:41.833 --> 00:45:44.996
Her book Co-Parenting with the Toxic X is excellent.

00:45:44.996 --> 00:46:01.003
It's on our domestic violence reading list, our domestic violence center reading list, and she's extremely knowledgeable, even though you know she's a bit of a controversial figure because of the whole parental alienation being such a controversial topic.

00:46:01.003 --> 00:46:13.835
But I felt like and I still feel like it's very important for our clients to really understand what alienation means, to make sure that they're not doing anything wrong, because there's all kinds of insidious things that we ourselves do that we might not even realize.

00:46:13.835 --> 00:46:23.001
So Amy Baker has about 17 different factors, which we narrow down to six when we teach them with our clients and in our book.

00:46:23.001 --> 00:46:30.929
So the first one is and this is probably the most common is sending poisonous messages about the other parent to the child.

00:46:30.929 --> 00:46:41.940
A lot of people don't say it straight out, but they'll send messages that the other parent is what I call the three U's unsafe, unloving or unavailable.

00:46:41.940 --> 00:46:52.914
So it's not just words the other parent says, but body language, tone of voice, eye rolling, making a kid feel like, oh you know, just little comments about the other parent.

00:46:52.914 --> 00:46:56.081
Oh, dad's here, wow, that's nice.

00:46:56.081 --> 00:46:58.751
Oh you know, it's great that he's not late this time.

00:46:58.751 --> 00:47:00.614
Just little little things.

00:47:00.614 --> 00:47:02.056
And that's even more overt.

00:47:02.056 --> 00:47:16.802
But when you a child who is who is being turned against another parent, they start developing the sense that if they show any affection towards, let's say, you, the other side's going to be like annoyed at them or they'll be punished.

00:47:16.802 --> 00:47:22.690
Where there's no words even said, so poisonous message is big, that's really big, okay.

00:47:22.710 --> 00:47:25.360
The second one is blocking contact and communication.

00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:35.097
So when one parent is not honoring a parenting plan, making court-ordered FaceTime calls really difficult, acting like they're making things difficult.

00:47:35.097 --> 00:47:45.217
When I talk about blocking contact, it also means that both parents should have full access, without a court order, to doctors, schools and extracurricular records.

00:47:45.217 --> 00:47:54.043
Sometimes parents make the mistake where they'll be like well, I'm the primary parent, so I'm not going to put my ex on here and I'm going to put my boyfriend as the emergency contact.

00:47:54.043 --> 00:47:56.710
You don't do that, okay.

00:47:56.710 --> 00:47:58.338
So blocking contact and communication.

00:48:00.050 --> 00:48:02.400
The third is erasing and replacing.

00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:19.690
So you never want your child to call any new partner of yours, any version of daddy or mommy or zaddy or whatever it is, because only the bio parent has that, unless maybe they died or some other you know strange, unusual situation.

00:48:19.690 --> 00:48:26.418
So you really want to make sure that your child, no matter what, that they still can call their other parent mom.

00:48:26.418 --> 00:48:32.041
You don't want to tell someone that their step-parent is their new mommy or their new daddy, which we see a lot.

00:48:32.041 --> 00:48:37.476
And let's see, replacing is where you.

00:48:37.476 --> 00:48:49.074
It's almost like you want to make the child feel as though the other parent was never really part of their history or their life, where they try to minimize that you were there, like you weren't that important.

00:48:49.074 --> 00:48:58.300
Yeah, so that's like bigger, but basically making it like you're not important and that the child can just replace you with somebody else.

00:48:58.300 --> 00:48:59.871
You don't ever want to do that.

00:49:00.335 --> 00:49:04.235
The next is encouraging a child to betray another parent's trust.

00:49:04.235 --> 00:49:12.951
So we see this more with older kids, like tweens and teens, where one parent will be like oh, could you like find out what's going on at that other parent's house?

00:49:12.951 --> 00:49:16.842
They'll grill them, they'll ask lots of questions and kids feel like they have to answer.

00:49:16.842 --> 00:49:31.827
But also they'll have kids go over and listen in on phone conversations, take pictures, get into their parents' drawers, sometimes, get into their computers, their phones and report back to that other parent.

00:49:31.827 --> 00:49:33.998
So that's a big no-no.

00:49:35.291 --> 00:49:42.260
The next one is to minimize someone's authority, so to make it like well, my rules apply to both houses.

00:49:42.260 --> 00:49:47.751
So bedtime is eight o'clock at my house and then you better tell that other parent that it's the same at their house.

00:49:47.751 --> 00:49:49.577
You are only allowed to eat this stuff.

00:49:49.577 --> 00:49:51.952
You're not allowed to eat that with the other parents.

00:49:51.952 --> 00:49:53.414
So you don't do that.

00:49:53.414 --> 00:50:00.273
You're each parents and people on the day-to-day get to do what they want and you can't control them.

00:50:00.273 --> 00:50:05.382
And we see this a lot with our own clients, where we're like no, don't do that.

00:50:05.382 --> 00:50:18.983
And even in communication a lot, the way that you talk to an ex, where you act like well, I'm the one who's always taking care of the child, so I'm going to tell you what you need to do, and I'm like that's no, don't do that, because that looks bad and it can be twisted against you in court.

00:50:18.983 --> 00:50:24.134
And then the last one is encouraging dependence in a child.

00:50:24.134 --> 00:50:27.342
So I'm not talking about really little kids who obviously are dependent.

00:50:27.342 --> 00:50:31.742
But to make it like a child can't think for themselves.

00:50:32.565 --> 00:50:39.221
Often a lot of narcissistic personality types need supply, they need attention and they use their children as their supply.

00:50:39.221 --> 00:50:46.684
And so they'll keep the kids dependent by infantilizing them, making them feel helpless, like, oh, let me do this for you.

00:50:46.684 --> 00:50:52.427
I know my partner, chris's ex, used to lay out their boys' clothes on their beds.

00:50:52.427 --> 00:50:57.559
Well into middle school it's like you want to make your kids be independent.

00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:07.632
And as kids get older in this kind of dynamic, often they'll use money where it's like if you don't do what I want, I'm not going to pay for your car, I'm not going to pay for college, I'm not going to do this.

00:51:07.632 --> 00:51:13.193
So kids are like I better do what that parent wants, or else they're not going to take care of me.

00:51:13.193 --> 00:51:21.960
So we want our clients to encourage children to be independent, to not have to do what an abuser wants, just to get something from them.

00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:25.594
So those are, in a quick nutshell, the six alienation factors.

00:51:27.056 --> 00:51:34.152
Okay, wow, I'm like so many of those things are like red lights flashing.

00:51:34.152 --> 00:51:44.704
Yeah, so you can still have like a high conflict divorce without children.

00:51:44.704 --> 00:51:47.291
Do you have many of those clients?

00:51:47.612 --> 00:51:54.737
Yeah, yeah, most of our clients have kids because we, because we have loads of custody battles, but we have a number of clients who don't have kids.

00:51:54.797 --> 00:51:59.918
It's about money and it's about things not being fair and or the kids have aged out.

00:52:00.478 --> 00:52:02.503
So usually high conflict is about money.

00:52:02.503 --> 00:52:09.432
But keep in mind that a high conflict divorce it's not that two people are high conflict, it's one that's high conflict.

00:52:09.432 --> 00:52:33.402
So you know, and and the other thing is that you can have a high conflict person who doesn't have to have a high conflict divorce, and the trick is they need to have a great attorney, because if there's two attorneys that can work together, then that attorney can, people can manage the difficult person and still have a very smooth divorce.

00:52:33.402 --> 00:52:43.954
And so that's why we love, if at all possible and we have seen it happen collaborative divorce professionals who work as a team, where the two attorneys know each other, they work together.

00:52:43.954 --> 00:52:53.521
There's a therapist, there's a financial advisor or financial expert, and so they're all working together to help get the couple through the process outside of a courtroom.

00:52:53.521 --> 00:53:06.922
To be like, let's just figure it out and lower the conflict as much as possible and keep this family, you know, not have the conflict bleed onto children, because the more litigious cases, the more the children really suffer.

00:53:08.570 --> 00:53:09.793
So obviously it's.

00:53:09.793 --> 00:53:23.840
You know, if possible, it's great to have this huge team, but what about for the individual to say that it's a financial abuse component where they have no resources to fall back on and maybe not even a support system out there that can help?

00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:26.588
Are there any recommendations for how they can navigate this?

00:53:27.974 --> 00:53:31.949
Yeah, financial abuse is present in 99% of abusive relationships.

00:53:31.949 --> 00:53:37.603
It's the most common thing, money being used to control somebody.

00:53:37.603 --> 00:53:48.451
So the best resource that I wish I had known about that I found out like a year and nine months after I got out of my relationship is a local domestic violence center.

00:53:48.451 --> 00:53:51.916
There are so many free resources.

00:53:51.916 --> 00:54:04.784
I think me and my kids had like more than four months worth of once a week counseling that was free, by trained trauma-informed professionals.

00:54:04.784 --> 00:54:14.998
You know, often domestic violence centers they have shelters, they have places that sometimes they'll have lawyers that will not.

00:54:14.998 --> 00:54:30.164
Often they don't take on your case pro bono, but they can give you general legal advice, Just all kinds of diapers and clothing and people donate money to help pay for a variety of things.

00:54:30.164 --> 00:54:38.182
So definitely check out your local domestic violence center or one that's outside of your local area but still like an in-person one.

00:54:38.590 --> 00:54:42.135
There's usually free domestic violence hotlines where you could talk to people.

00:54:42.135 --> 00:54:45.382
They can help you put together a safety plan.

00:54:45.382 --> 00:54:49.239
You know if you're still in the relationship or if the person's still there.

00:54:49.239 --> 00:54:56.130
We talk about and I'm a state certified domestic violence advocate that if you're still in the relationship you should come up with two safety plans.

00:54:56.130 --> 00:55:01.541
One is long-term where, like you gather, you know the birth certificates and all this stuff before you leave.

00:55:01.942 --> 00:55:16.670
And one is the emergency plan where, just like when you're pregnant and you have your hospital bag packed and you're ready to go, and also give you tips on, like making sure that you start parking the car backwards so if you have to leave quickly, you don't have to back out, you just go.

00:55:16.670 --> 00:55:27.126
And to not wear like thick jewelry or scarves, because strangulation is one of the most common lethal forms of killing somebody who's a domestic violence victim.

00:55:27.126 --> 00:55:37.445
So to be conscious of what you're wearing, to have like extra keys hidden outside to your car and like all kinds of little things like that, that's free resources.

00:55:37.445 --> 00:55:44.969
So definitely contact a local domestic violence center resources.

00:55:44.990 --> 00:55:52.518
So definitely contact a local domestic violence center, okay, and so I definitely want to talk about everything that you have to offer again, but is there anything else you think, before we get into all of that that we need to cover?

00:55:52.518 --> 00:55:54.061
I mean, there's so much more.

00:55:56.231 --> 00:55:58.175
No, I mean that's, I think that's, that's good.

00:55:58.175 --> 00:55:59.940
That's a lot Like we went through a lot.

00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:02.257
You know surface level but a lot of different things.

00:56:03.179 --> 00:56:08.840
Yeah, so let's talk about all of the things that you have to help people.

00:56:09.402 --> 00:56:12.331
Yeah, so we do so.

00:56:12.331 --> 00:56:16.110
My partner is Chris, and Chris and I are also a couple in real life for more than 10 years.

00:56:16.110 --> 00:56:28.097
We always say nobody cares, but a lot of people think it's really cool because we're like Chris is the love of my life and I met him after we both got out of these long term toxic marriages with children.

00:56:28.097 --> 00:56:41.967
So we've navigated a bit of we're not married and we don't live together Not yet, but but it's really good, I think, for people to see a model of a couple who like, adore each other and have built this business together.

00:56:41.967 --> 00:56:47.802
And we both experienced domestic violence, and especially Chris, who's six, three and a big guy.

00:56:47.802 --> 00:56:54.543
You know to be able to talk about what it's like for a man who's been through something like this.

00:56:54.543 --> 00:56:58.438
So we do strategy sessions with our clients.

00:56:58.438 --> 00:57:00.282
We meet our clients are all over the world.

00:57:00.282 --> 00:57:08.820
We say that laws are different, but the issues are the same and the art of persuasion has been effective with our clients everywhere, men and women.

00:57:08.820 --> 00:57:10.463
So we do that.

00:57:11.329 --> 00:57:25.757
There's a number of things that we teach people, including strategic communication, targeted documentation, how to present properly in court, as well as, to you know, gals and custody evaluators, how to represent yourself, meaning go pro se.

00:57:25.757 --> 00:57:27.302
That's what I did for all those years.

00:57:27.302 --> 00:57:36.534
How to mediate effectively with people with personality disorders, and then the whole what to do when your ex turns the kids against you.

00:57:36.534 --> 00:57:40.061
That's a course, as well as our book that's coming out.

00:57:40.061 --> 00:57:45.320
So we have the strategy sessions, we have our online course.00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:47.076


It's a series of courses.00:57:47.076 --> 00:57:53.996


We released the strategic communication one which is called how to Communicate with your Ex Without Destroying your Case or Losing your Mind.00:57:53.996 --> 00:58:05.521


So that's out, and then we're working on oh, actually, another course that we're doing is on parenting plans, because Chris's expertise is writing airtight, high conflict parenting plans or parallel parenting plans.00:58:05.521 --> 00:58:15.353


So we have like a do-it-yourself course that we're almost done with, and then Chris writes parenting plans for people and they just make sure their lawyer checks them.00:58:15.373 --> 00:58:31.501


But it's a really great thing to have, especially as you're negotiating with custody ahead of time, just as, like an initial proposal, it's far cheaper than a lawyer doing it and it's way better than a lawyer doing it because they use templates and they don't have the experience that we do with high conflict cases.00:58:31.501 --> 00:58:57.663


So that's one thing, but the thing that I'm also super proud of is we have our weekly legal abuse support group and that we meet every Sunday from 12 pm to 1.45 Eastern time, and we do the very unusual thing, in the domestic violence space, of blending our male and female clients together, because we firmly believe that abuse is a human issue, not just a gender issue.00:58:57.663 --> 00:59:13.458


And since so many of our clients tend to be super successful, very well-educated professionals or creatives or entrepreneurs, they bring so much to the group in terms of their ability to research and just their perspectives.00:59:13.458 --> 00:59:25.791


It's wonderful to have lawyers as clients, because I can't give legal advice, but when someone's talking about something, sometimes one of our lawyers will chime in and they're like I don't know your case, but from a legal perspective it's that.00:59:25.791 --> 00:59:31.273


Or we have like behavioral analysts who will be like oh, here's some tips of what you could try for your kids.00:59:31.273 --> 00:59:34.920


Doctors who, like they help each other so much.00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:41.903


Like one of our client's kids had diabetes and he's really little and she was having problems with her ex getting some kind of medical device.00:59:41.903 --> 00:59:45.840


And another one on the call who works in pharmaceuticals was like I'll just send it to you.00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:48.159


I'm like, oh, you guys are amazing.00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:50.617


So they make friends.00:59:50.849 --> 00:59:53.697


And because we exclusively deal with high conflict cases.00:59:53.697 --> 01:00:00.702


You're amongst people that all get it, because they're all dealing with your ex in a different flavor, male or female.01:00:00.702 --> 01:00:05.576


They're all dealing with your ex in a different flavor, male or female.01:00:05.576 --> 01:00:18.797


And so I think especially for men to have a place to talk and to be supported and for women to understand what it's like for a male protective parent whose kid is clinging to them and terrified of going back with their mother and to see like we're the same, like all our clients care about their children more than anything and want to keep them safe.01:00:18.797 --> 01:00:19.740


So it's great to have like a little the same.01:00:19.740 --> 01:00:27.351


Like all our clients care about their children more than anything and want to keep them safe, so it's great to have like a little army of people who are all helping each other out.01:00:27.851 --> 01:00:33.150


So in the group we do not get into how broken the family court system is, because it's not helpful.01:00:33.150 --> 01:00:44.262


We get into strategy and then we deal with bigger issues that no lawyer is going to talk about is how are my kids going to be okay with a parent like this and how do I co-parent with someone that doesn't care about our kids?01:00:44.262 --> 01:00:46.271


It just wants to punish me with our kids?01:00:46.271 --> 01:00:54.054


So our clients really feel supported and I say they heal faster because of that support from the group.01:00:54.054 --> 01:01:09.577


And then we also do this other client perk that we call free check-ins as part of a membership program, where we say, when you're freaking out about something, don't waste $95 on average to ask your lawyer a question, because most of the time it's not legal, it's like a clarification thing.01:01:09.577 --> 01:01:14.780


So we'll say, send us an email and we'll write back to you as quickly as possible.01:01:14.780 --> 01:01:22.900


We're really good with getting back right away and we'll kind of talk you off the ledge and calm you down and send you on your way.01:01:22.989 --> 01:01:31.657


But also, once we teach strategic communication, we put you on what's called the permission slip plan, because I used to be a high school English teacher, so we have lots of teaching metaphors.01:01:31.657 --> 01:01:32.994


We'll say so.01:01:32.994 --> 01:01:33.576


You are not.01:01:33.576 --> 01:01:50.463


You can what you think you wanna say the draft of what you've written, do not send it to your ex, send it to us first and you have to wait and then we will proofread and edit it for you, because we want you to have clean hands and the record to be clean and you don't have the burden of being like oh my gosh, am I saying it right, am I doing it right?01:01:50.463 --> 01:01:58.894


Like we will make sure you are perfect for that invisible audience and you will learn to do it yourself, like a little bird leaving the nest.01:01:58.894 --> 01:02:18.400


So they really love that too, because they feel like, okay, I'm gonna learn, like Lisa and Chris have got me and I'm gonna be okay, and so that really we see them transform like people who couldn't breathe, are now like like looking better and healthier and getting rid of their cancer and their CPTSD.01:02:18.829 --> 01:02:26.842


And so I always say our clients do extremely well in and out of family court and I think it's because of the tremendous support they get.01:02:26.842 --> 01:02:32.840


They get the free check-ins whenever they want it, they get the weekly group support once a week if they need it.01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:36.657


And then we can really devote the sessions to the educational stuff.01:02:36.657 --> 01:02:45.710


And I always tell our clients like my master's is in education, so everything we do and Chris and I are both professional writers everything we do comes from an educational perspective.01:02:45.710 --> 01:02:51.201


It's not like we're just coaches, like we're, you know, like teachers and trained in that.01:02:51.201 --> 01:02:53.697


So yeah, so that's what we do.01:02:53.697 --> 01:02:59.516


And we have our book on Amazon, our first book, and the next book is going to be out in a few months and the courses are coming out.01:03:02.713 --> 01:03:03.195


So busy, busy.01:03:03.195 --> 01:03:04.199


So how do people find you?01:03:05.231 --> 01:03:05.532


So easy.01:03:05.532 --> 01:03:07.577


Just Google Been there, Got Out, You'll find us.01:03:07.577 --> 01:03:09.643


Our website is beentheregotoutcom.01:03:09.643 --> 01:03:11.552


We're all over social media.01:03:11.552 --> 01:03:12.976


Instagram's my home base.01:03:12.976 --> 01:03:16.851


We have a podcast and a YouTube channel just Been there, Got Out.01:03:16.851 --> 01:03:25.956


If you want to send us an email, lisa at beentheregotoutcom or chris at beentheregotoutcom and our website has a little red button on the homepage.01:03:25.956 --> 01:03:34.442


If you want to schedule a free discovery call, which is a Zoom meeting with Chris and I We'll talk to you and find out what's going on and see if and how we can help.01:03:36.347 --> 01:03:40.880


Okay, awesome, I love all of this, thank you.01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:49.092


Awesome, I love all of this, thank you.01:03:49.092 --> 01:03:52.378


Do you have any like lasting, like major takeaway for anybody that's going through it or about to go through all?01:03:52.398 --> 01:04:02.371


of this, yeah, so keep in mind that a lot of people beat themselves up because they're like I can't believe I was so stupid that I fell for someone like this.01:04:02.371 --> 01:04:09.693


And just remember that domestic violence affects one in three women and one in five men during their lives.01:04:09.693 --> 01:04:12.217


And you think it's just you.01:04:12.217 --> 01:04:20.876


Every time I go to any event with a group of people and say what I do, people approach me like, oh my God, this is me, this is someone that I love.01:04:20.876 --> 01:04:22.733


So it's right beneath the surface.01:04:22.733 --> 01:04:33.710


And as you're thinking, oh, I can't believe I was so stupid to have fallen for someone like that, remember that you should actually be thinking the opposite, because abusers are parasites.01:04:34.231 --> 01:04:42.559


They attach themselves to what we call our shining stars, the most creative, responsible shining stars, the most creative, responsible, brilliant, beautiful people.01:04:42.559 --> 01:04:55.632


You were chosen, you were targeted because you made them look good, and they're so angry when you get away, and that's why this is happening.01:04:55.632 --> 01:04:57.059


It's not because you're a loser, it's because you're amazing.01:04:57.059 --> 01:04:58.485


So just remember that, and life is going to be so much better.01:04:58.485 --> 01:05:08.275


But you're just going to have to get through this part and you really do need support to get through it, but with that support, you're going to be a better person, and it's going to be better for your children as well.01:05:08.275 --> 01:05:15.663


I hate the term self-care, but you have to take care of yourself so that you'll be better.01:05:15.663 --> 01:05:18.492


Your children won't have to be emotionally responsible for you.01:05:18.492 --> 01:05:20.737


It's just worth it.01:05:20.737 --> 01:05:22.641


You need to get support now.01:05:22.641 --> 01:05:28.351


So, even though you're the most responsible person in the world and you can do it yourself, don't Get help.01:05:30.094 --> 01:05:31.739


Okay, thank you so much.01:05:31.739 --> 01:05:33.864


I really appreciate all of this information.01:05:34.190 --> 01:05:35.114


No, it's been my pleasure.01:05:35.114 --> 01:05:38.471


Thank you so much, Ingrid, for hosting me and letting me talk about this.01:05:39.293 --> 01:05:44.153


Thank you again, lisa, for joining me today, and thank you, warriors, for listening.01:05:44.153 --> 01:05:50.373


I have included the links Lisa was referring to, as well as her one in three profile in the show notes.01:05:50.373 --> 01:05:54.101


I will be back next week with another episode for you.01:05:54.722 --> 01:06:16.632


until then, stay strong and, wherever you are in your journey, always remember you are not alone.01:06:16.632 --> 01:06:21.673


Follow 1in3 on Instagram, facebook and Twitter at 1in3podcast.01:06:21.673 --> 01:06:25.974


To help me out, please remember to rate, review and subscribe.01:06:25.974 --> 01:06:32.016


1in3 is a .5 Pinoy production Music written and performed by Tim Crow.01:06:32.016 --> 01:06:35.496


Thank you.