91-Protecting Kids After Domestic Violence: Dr. Royster on Post-Separation Abuse

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Co-parenting and specifically high conflict co-parenting in the context of post-separation abuse are topics we're all becoming increasingly familiar with on this podcast.

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But the truth is, there's still so much more left to learn.

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Please welcome my guest joining me today, child psychologist Dr.

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Royster, who is here to help us dive deeper.

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Hi, Dr.

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Royster.

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Thank you so much for joining me today.

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I'm so happy to be here.

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Thank you.

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Okay, so before we dive into our conversation, could you give a bit of a background just so the listeners can get to know you?

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Yeah.

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Well, so let's see.

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I'm in Colorado and I'm a Wisconsin native.

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You and I talk about that a lot.

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Um yeah.

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That's also why it's so easy to talk to both of us, I think.

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Um I have two kids, and we live and parent here in Colorado.

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We have for a long time.

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I'm a child psychologist.

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I have my own practice here in the Denver area.

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It's called Little House Psychology, an homage to Laura Engelsweiler, who started in Wisconsin as well.

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That's right.

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Little House in the Big Woods.

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My daughter started reading that book.

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Yeah, just the other day.

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Go back and read them.

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You're a little bit like, ooh, there's this is problematic.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, there's some problems.

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But uh, I loved the books when I was little.

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And so that's where the practice name came from.

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And then I do therapy almost exclusively with children.

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That's my specialty.

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That's what I've always loved doing.

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And I work with a lot of kids from two homes.

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And so I see those children therapeutically.

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And then over time, I started to realize that there's this whole group of people that, moms in particular, that really struggle to know how to support their kids in that dynamic.

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And as the therapist or as their psychologist, I was really limited with what I could and couldn't say, right?

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You really have to be very neutral.

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And so out of that came my second business, which is learn with a little house.

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And that is a coaching business only for moms who are moving past or still in high conflict divorce, post-separation abuse, um, managing having their kiddos go in and out of these really toxic dynamics.

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And so I do a lot of work there talking with moms about how, like if I could be a little bug in your ear when a kid comes back and says something really off the wall to you, that's what I do in that business.

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Okay, perfect.

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So it's a very long introduction.

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No, but that's exactly what we need here.

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So um, okay.

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Well, and well, I was looking at your profile, and then there's you had a few terms that I wasn't really sure.

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The difference between co-parenting, parallel parenting, and nesting.

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Yeah.

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I don't know what that is.

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Okay, this is great.

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So I'm happy to talk about this.

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I would say that the gold standard for kids, what helps kids a lot post-divorce, is what we consider to be collaborative co-parenting.

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So that's kind of the gold standard.

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Basically, you can think of it as kids do worse when there's more conflict.

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Right?

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So everybody's kind of trying to get to this really beautiful co-parenting dynamic, right?

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Where, you know, you get along, you can stand by each other at the soccer game and the police doesn't get called.

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Um, you can generally text each other, you can talk to each other, you're not super worried about your co-parent, you know, talking shit about you or sabotaging your relationship, right?

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This is definitely kind of the dynamic, very business-like, is very collaborative as well.

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But I would say even friendly.

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Okay.

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So that's collaborative co-parenting.

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Anytime you hear somebody talk about that, they will tell you that took a lot of work.

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That took a lot of time.

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We still have our moments, right?

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Like if we could parent peacefully together, we might still be together, right?

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So that's a that's kind of what people are working towards.

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And that's what the research tells us helps kids the most.

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On both, you can kind of think of that as the middle of the road.

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On both sides of that are parallel and nesting.

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Nesting is a term that we use for folks that you can, it's comes from bird nesting.

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Think of birds, right?

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Um, think of birds.

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The bird nest is the family home, and the kids stay there, and one parent flies, quote unquote, in and out of the house.

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So there's usually a separate house on the outside, like a small apartment or something, that the kids really never go to, but the parents transition in and out of the house.

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It works best when it's temporary.

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So, in in cities and places like where we live, in Colorado, I assume also in Tennessee, houses are really expensive.

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The housing market's bananas, even if you had the money to get a house, would be hard.

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And so a lot of families use this while they're still in tied up in divorce proceedings, right?

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If you're waiting to sell the house or you're waiting for, I don't know, part of your um settlement to help you purchase a second home, right?

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Like this kind of dynamic.

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As you can imagine, that requires a very high level of cooperation, right?

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Because if you got salty when he wouldn't unload the dishwasher before, imagine when you're not there and you come back from your apartment and the dishwasher is dirty, right?

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So it's it requires a pretty high level of cooperation.

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Okay.

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So that's kind of the nesting idea.

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Then at the far end of the other side of the continuum is what we call parallel parenting.

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Parallel parenting is you want to think about it a little bit like um like a divided highway, right?

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Like an interstate.

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You're going one direction, your partner's going the other direction, you do not cross the median, right?

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What happens in our house is my own rules, my own punishments.

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They don't, it's not like if I take away the iPad at my place, I can expect the iPad to be taken away at the other house, right?

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Um rules are separate, routines are separate, there's very little communication across the interstate, right?

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And typically, parallel parenting, it's very normal for folks to do parallel parenting before they can get to collaborative.

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And that's because there's a lot of healing and hurt, right?

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So along the grief process, that's pretty normal.

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And then you move towards that.

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But we also see it in situations where there was abuse, violence, um, where there's post-separation abuse, where there continues to be this really high conflict, very litigious, very intense relationship.

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Then we often recommend parallel parenting for everyone's sake.

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It's better for the courts, for the legal proceedings, and it's also better for usually the co-parent's own mental health, right?

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There's less, there's less crossing.

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Well, I think, unfortunately, for probably a lot of the listeners, given this as a domestic violence podcast, is that it's probably a combination of parallel parking or parking, parking, parallel parenting um with the abusive ex, like playing, crossing that median and playing chicken with you.

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You know, this is not my quote.

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I didn't come up with this, but I read somewhere that it's like co-parenting, quote unquote, whatever you want to call it, um, is one of the only dynamics where you're expected to stay in contact with your abuser.

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You have to.

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You have children, right?

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And and sometimes that person disappears, but often the types of folks that engage in abuse, narcissistic abuse, domestic violence, that that type of abuse are really interested in power and control and having kids in the dynamic is like, I don't know, their fuel.

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Like they're they're not interested in what's best for their kids.

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They're interested in power and control over you.

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And the way they do that is through the kids.

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Exactly.

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And that I think is where there's the potential for so many, I guess, mistakes that the the victim parent can run into because they're trying to advocate for their child or children.

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They're also trying to navigate this whole power struggle that's happening.

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And there's this fine line between advocating and becoming too aggressive, to where the court system looks at that parent and thinks they're actually the controlling one or they're actually the aggressive person.

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Yes.

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And I think what gets really tricky too is in cases where it's it's more of an emotional or narcissistic abuse, that's very hard to prove.

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Right.

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And so, and it's you know, it's not as clear as something like physical abuse, where there's a CPS report, there's an injury, it's not, it's not debatable if it's happening or not.

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And the classic move is to say, uh, well, she's just poisoning me against the kids when moms are trying to talk about this kind of concern they have for their children's well-being.

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Right.

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So many thoughts on sure.

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And I've had a few people come on and and talk about this in you know, different from different points of view.

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But uh like what do you I don't think we can hear enough.

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Like, what do you do?

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You know, how do you how do you, when you're getting your kids home and you realize that what's happening, you know, you're doing that sort of parallel parenting, but what's happening at that other house is damaging or, you know, not not creating this stable environment for the kids to where they're emotionally healthy, they're adjusting well, or you know, even bad not taking on bad destructive behavior.

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How do you counteract, I guess?

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Yeah.

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Well, and I think this goes back to what you what we were talking about earlier about why it's important to understand what lane that you're in.

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Because if you have a collaborative dynamic, if this is somebody you even have a business-like relationship with, or you have you're working really hard to assume the best of your co-parent, you're gonna handle those situations different, right?

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Because you might know your kid is being a kid and trying to play you guys off of each other.

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So your kid might come back and say something like, Well, dad says you're really stupid with money, right?

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If I'm in a collaborative dynamic, I may think to myself, or even just with my own kids, right?

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We're still together, we're partnered, right?

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I know that they wouldn't say that about me, right?

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So it's really easy for me to be like, Well, I wonder what your dad was thinking when he said that.

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Or I'm pretty sure your dad doesn't think I'm stupid if he said that, you know, like whatever, right?

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You might address it.

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And then you might go to your co-parent and say, Hey, look, uh, they said you said this, and I know you would never say that.

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What do you think is going on here?

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Right.

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Imagine that with someone toxic.

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And I'm using that term to encompass all of what this podcast kind of talks about.

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You you would never, right?

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You wouldn't open yourself up to that.

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You to your child might be thinking, well, it's pretty likely they did hear that, and it's pretty likely they meant it.

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And now I have to offset this, right?

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So, how do we manage that?

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Well, this is why there's whole other programs and systems.

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It takes a different set of skills.

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It really does.

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The first thing that we talk about all the time is documenting, having a very good system for how and what you're documenting.

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Because in these post-separation abuse dynamics, you the list of what you're documenting is endless.

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So there's a strategy that I recommend folks work with their attorneys on around what is it we're trying to achieve?

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What is it I'm really trying to prove that they are consistently speaking poorly about me?

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Or I'm really trying to approve that they trying to prove, not approve, trying to prove that they're inching closer and closer with transitions.

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They're getting earlier and earlier and earlier, right?

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Or I'm seeing a pattern of every time kiddo comes back from a long visit, we have fall apart for two days.

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Whatever it might be, you're you're strategically documenting that because otherwise you get super overwhelmed documenting everything.

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Okay.

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So there's that piece.

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And then there is support and coaching around what to say and what not to say to kids, right?

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Sometimes I work mostly with moms.

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Um, sometimes moms have read or kind of been, it's been drilled into them to not say anything poorly or or bad about their ex, right?

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And over time, the way that gets translated is I just won't say anything.

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The kid comes back and they say that dad said I was stupid.

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I'm not supposed to say anything bad, so I don't say what I want to say, which is no, he's stupid, and he's stupid for telling you that.

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Which of course you might think but not say, right?

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And so you end up saying nothing.

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You say something like, oh, okay, and then move on, right?

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But when kids' mental health is at play and when it really is like turning against you, you need to go a step beyond that.

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And you need to say something like, I really appreciate you telling me that.

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What did that make you feel like when he was talking about me like that?

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Or, gosh, you know, we don't call people stupid.

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What is that's kind of a hurtful thing to say to someone.

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You see how that's not talking badly about him at all.

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It isn't.

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I'm not saying he shouldn't be saying that to you.

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I'm saying, what did that feel like to hear that?

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And thanks for telling me.

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So it's that type of skill that we teach.

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Okay, and that's also putting it on the kid to recognize their feelings and to understand that their feelings are validated and okay to feel.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Because you also have to imagine in that dynamic, it's probably not safe for that kid to disagree with that toxic person.

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Right.

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Uh, and and that could be actual physical safety, but it could also be emotional safety.

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This is someone that will shame me or call me stupid or make my life hell if I say, like, hey, I don't think mom's stupid.

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Right.

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And it also speaks to your relationship with your child that they're coming back and sharing what they saw and felt.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, our goal is always the we want our kids to be well adjusted and stable.

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So other than that, are there any other things that parents can do to make sure that they are helping their children develop to become emotionally secure, and especially in these like really diverse chaotic environments?

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There's so much.

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I mean, there's so much you can do.

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We have a whole like program on this, right?

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Because it's many, many small things.

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So part of it is teaching kids how to test reality themselves, right?

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How to look around and sort of discern.

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And this takes a lot of time.

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Younger kids kind of just believe what their parents say, right?

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It's very threatening to not believe that.

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But if you continue to help teach them how to discern and question and observe, over time they do start to see things for what they are, right?

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So if you're doing that in a non-judgmental way that doesn't put them in the middle, that really helps.

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The best things mom can moms can do has to do with, and this is a way oversimplified way of thinking of it, but controlling what they can control, right?

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So if you want to raise kids that speak their mind and share with you and think feelings are okay, then you are really encouraging those things in your own time, in your own lane of the highway, right?

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And you're continuing to try to support that with the other lane, but knowing that you can't, right?

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Right.

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Right.

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You can't text him and be like, listen, when she starts crying, you better say, It's okay to cry.

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It's not gonna probably do the exact opposite.

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Exactly, exactly.

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But you can, when she comes back and she says, I started crying and I got in trouble for it, you can say things like, Well, that's not okay.

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Sorry that happened to you.

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Yeah, it's always okay to cry.

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Right.

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Right?

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So you're reinforcing your values whenever you can.

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So I can do thinking.

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I know.

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And then remember, I was saying it's swirly.

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So it's I have to like well, and it is an oversimplified way.

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I mean, we're trying to distill like what I teach in six months, right?

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Right.

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Well, okay, so let's say parents are are doing all of you know these techniques, these um techniques.

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When when uh is there any like warning signs or like red alert sign, or you don't want to get to a red alert, but any signs where you're thinking, I might need to actually have my child go seek um, you know, communication with somebody, not seek help or that there's something wrong with them, but finding a a third party for them to talk to.

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Yeah, and we'll talk about some of the difficulties with that as well.

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Um the classics, so the first sign that I always talk to moms about is trusting your intuition.

00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.279
There really isn't anything more powerful.

00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:50.960
You know your kid best.

00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:57.200
If you're starting to be like, wow, we are way sadder for way longer, right?

00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:03.440
Or this now feels bigger than something I can manage myself.

00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:11.839
It's becoming less of a they're mildly distressed and more like we're anxious all the time, right?

00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.000
Or we're getting depressed.

00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.599
With littler kids, we see really big behaviors.

00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:24.000
A very common one is separation anxiety that is not really developmentally appropriate.

00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:30.160
There's periods when that's pretty typical, um, and lengths of time that it's pretty typical, right?

00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.599
So you're starting a new classroom and you're four.

00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:38.240
It's pretty normal for that to take a couple weeks for you to adjust.

00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:50.480
But if we're now three months in and they're still pulling your screaming child off of you and they're saying, gosh, you know, it takes her an hour to calm down.

00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:56.240
That's we're edging out of what I would consider pretty typical behavior, right?

00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:59.920
So you're watching for those outliers, right?

00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:09.519
Behaviors that are either more intense than they were, or more frequent than they were, right?

00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:12.400
So maybe occasionally we had a hard time with transitions.

00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.079
That feels pretty typical.

00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:15.839
Now it's every time.

00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:22.400
Now it's even a transition from, you know, I don't know, like inside to outside.

00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:25.599
We're gonna go play inside, and that transition now melts us down.

00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:26.079
Okay.

00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:28.880
That's the kind of stuff you're watching for.

00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:32.079
The other big thing with kids is regressions.

00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:36.160
So it's just a fancy way of saying we had a skill and now we don't.

00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:38.960
So we were talking, now we're not.

00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:42.880
We were totally polytrained, now we're having accidents every night.

00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:46.640
Um we, I don't know.

00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:51.119
Well, I guess physical regressions, like we could ride a bike or we could walk, and now we can't.

00:21:51.279 --> 00:22:00.240
That probably is more like a physical therapy kind of thing, but you're looking at like we used to be able to cope with things pretty well, and now we're really struggling.

00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.480
That's when you want to bring someone in.

00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:04.559
Yeah.

00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:11.119
And what what does one look for when they're looking for somebody for your their kids to talk to?

00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:12.000
Yeah.

00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:14.799
So here's here's the thing.

00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:16.000
Here's the thing.

00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:17.359
Let me tell you, let me tell you.

00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:28.799
Um you want somebody that is willing and has experience with divorce, and in particular with high conflict divorce.

00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:32.960
They, those kinds of folks can be a little like unicorns.

00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:34.880
They're very hard to find.

00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:44.640
It tends, speaking as a mental health professional, it's very, very litigious and very, very stressful to be involved in a case like that.

00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:49.519
And for those reasons, many mental health professionals will say no.

00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:50.400
Okay.

00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.680
It's very hard to find a therapist for your child in these situations.

00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:05.039
And that's even if you can get your co-parent to agree to it, which lots of times that's a whole other court involvement.

00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:09.599
Um, so it can be really tricky.

00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:26.000
You do want someone with experience because you need them to know when someone is putting on a show for them, when a parent is trying to manipulate a child or gaslight a child.

00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:28.559
You need them to be able to see that.

00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:29.200
Okay.

00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:34.720
And to not be easily influenced by the competing narratives.

00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:44.880
It's very speaking as someone who does this work, it is very hard to stay neutral and requires a lot of consultation and support from the mental health professional.

00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.880
And it's really tricky to find those folks.

00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:51.200
So that's what you're looking for.

00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:52.799
It's hard to find.

00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:54.640
Well, and how do you how do you do that?

00:23:54.720 --> 00:24:09.359
Because I feel like if there's say you're interviewing different um people and you're you're saying, hey, I want you to be able to tell if you know my ex is gaslighting my children or if they're manipulating.

00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:11.200
I guess that's kind of the same thing.

00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:15.279
But you know, how do you know if they're gonna, oh yeah, yeah, I know how to do that.

00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:23.200
Is there anything to really understand if they they truly know what they're talking they're talking about?

00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:28.640
And their abilities to to disclose that information, right?

00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:33.200
So the things you want to listen for is experience, right?

00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:36.559
So you want to ask, like, have you worked with cases like this before?

00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:38.960
What are your standard protocols?

00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:42.559
Like, how do you manage communicating with both of us?

00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:47.680
How do you manage, you know, even just down to the intake process, right?

00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:54.240
If if a therapist doesn't have both parents sign consents, that's concerning, right?

00:24:54.640 --> 00:25:07.119
If they're requesting that you do an intake together and you're like, well, look, we don't, that's not the kind of things we do, you might have to pay extra for that, and that'd be well within, you know, you're using someone's time.

00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:10.640
But you want someone that is like, well, how comfortable are you guys?

00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:13.759
Like, do you want to do it together or do you want to do it separate, right?

00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:23.119
Um, so you're looking for experience, you're looking for their processes that are already in place, and then you're listening for strong boundaries.

00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:29.519
So if they can hold boundaries with people, that means they likely can also hold professional boundaries, right?

00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:30.079
Okay.

00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:42.160
And so oftentimes, like when I take a case like this, I will tell families, like, listen, I can't make custody recommendations in the role of a psychologist for your child.

00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:43.359
That's not my role.

00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:47.200
So don't be playing that game with me, basically, is how I say it.

00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:54.799
You know, you don't need to convince me that she should never see her mom or she should never see her dad, because it's not appropriate for me to say that.

00:25:54.960 --> 00:26:02.559
My job is to help her go back and forth between your two homes, not to judge your two homes, right?

00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:03.279
Right.

00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.839
There, there are other psychologists that do that.

00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:07.119
Like that is their job.

00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:08.720
It's not my job.

00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:09.039
Right.

00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:10.640
So you want to hear things like that.

00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:25.759
So you can be like, okay, if a child senses that in therapy they're being pulled to say something, they're being pulled to say who they like more, who they want to live with, you've destroyed the therapeutic relationship.

00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:27.680
It's no longer a safe place.

00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:28.799
Right.

00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:40.319
How abuse works, how narcissistic abuse works, how children in these stressful environments get get kind of move through it.

00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:46.480
Maybe that's the way to say it, is they do have their their loyalties bounce, right?

00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:50.240
They still love someone that has hurt them.

00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:52.799
That's very common for children.

00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:56.559
You need someone that understands that, right?

00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:00.319
So they need to have a strong trauma background as well.

00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:02.160
As I'm talking, I'm thinking about that too.

00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:02.640
Yeah.

00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:03.119
Yeah.

00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:15.920
And I think with all the players in that whole process, attorneys, everybody, you want somebody that is trauma informed, that is going to really understand the situation you're in.

00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:18.960
I have, I'm totally gonna put you on the spot here.

00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:19.920
I'm ready.

00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:21.039
I'm ready.

00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:23.599
Uh so I can cut it out if it's terrible.

00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:24.559
So that's true.

00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:25.519
That is true.

00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:31.599
Um, if if you if you hear a little pause here and it goes to something else, it's because I answered poorly.

00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.359
Or you might have said, like, I am not answering that question.

00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:36.000
Yeah.

00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:42.640
Um, so I have a friend whose children were court mandated to go to a therapist.

00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:46.880
And sometimes I think the courts potentially will give an option.

00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:54.880
A lot of times these parents are going into the situation and they don't know who to look for or what to look for, and they're given a name by the court.

00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:56.400
Hey, this is somebody that we've used.

00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:58.000
Yeah, the attorneys know.

00:27:58.160 --> 00:27:58.319
Yeah.

00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:03.200
Which a lot of times those are good referrals because the attorney knows, like, this person is great.

00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:04.000
Yes.

00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:17.839
I feel like this case probably was not because I feel like this specific therapist was unfortunately manipulated by the abusive parent.

00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:23.200
And decisions that have been made since have directly impacted the kids.

00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:33.359
So, what do you do in a situation like that where you can visibly see this is a very negative effect on my children?

00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:38.079
I mean, this got to a very big extreme that I don't, I would I can give you details later.

00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:43.839
I don't want to give them publicly because I think it would be able to be able to narrow it down to who it is.

00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:56.960
But um, what do you do if you're in a situation where it is a court mandate, mandated therapist and you are seeing that this interaction is very, very unhealthy for your children?

00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:01.279
Are there any actions like can you petition for a second opinion?

00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:03.359
Or how does that work?

00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:06.960
Yeah, so I think there's a couple things to think about here.

00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:12.480
I think the first is that you do want to check yourself, right?

00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:26.400
So it's really easy for folks in these cases to be like, well, that psychologist was a quack, or you know, like this person is just clearly unethical because you don't agree with what they said, right?

00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:29.680
So you do want to run it through that filter first, right?

00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:33.279
Is it just like, I don't like this, I don't like what they're saying.

00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:54.160
Um, it doesn't sound like that was the case here, but that is always a good thing to think about and to process with your own therapist, too, of like, am I just getting triggered by my own trauma and my fears around what's going to happen to my kids is is seeping into this.

00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:59.440
And yet there's a subjective person telling me, like, no, there, you know, that isn't happening, right?

00:29:59.599 --> 00:29:59.920
Mm-hmm.

00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:02.799
Um, so that's important to differentiate.

00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:08.319
In a situation like this, I'm gonna this is kind of a half answer.

00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:09.359
And I'm sorry.

00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:11.839
But the truth is I was expecting no answer.

00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.759
Yeah, no, the truth is this is a this is an attorney question.

00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:17.359
This is something to ask your attorney.

00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:18.160
That's a good point.

00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:18.480
Yeah.

00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:26.559
To really and you may even just say and have your documentation in line, these are my concerns.

00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:29.599
This is my concern with what the therapist is saying.

00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:32.400
This is where it doesn't match up for me.

00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:44.319
Are there ways we can petition to have an evaluator come in or to have another therapist put on the case that we both agree with?

00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:57.359
I would also say that the way informed consent works is that at least here in Colorado, if a parent, we call it polling consent, but you know, you sign all the forms, you do informed consent.

00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:05.599
If if one parent in a case where I have two parents, if one parent says no, I stop treatment.

00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:06.480
Okay.

00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:08.160
I mean, legally, that's your right.

00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:11.519
That's what informed consent is, as the consenting adult.

00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:18.400
And so if a parent, if it's starting to go, you can always, and you can do this very respectfully.

00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.400
This person could just say, like, listen, I have concerns.

00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:30.319
I want to just put a pin in this for a minute, and then on the back end, you're talking to your attorney about your concerns and what you can do.

00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:32.480
You may lose that case, right?

00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:36.319
You may the child may return to that therapist and continue work.

00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:39.920
But that is your right as a parent.

00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:42.240
That's what informed consent is, right?

00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:42.799
Okay.

00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:43.920
Does that make sense?

00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:45.119
It does make sense.

00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:58.880
And actually, it's like very good advice to go to your attorney because the last thing you want to do is start creating these waves, especially if you're in an ongoing, which in this case they they are in an ongoing custody dispute.

00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:04.640
So you don't want to, you don't want to piss off anybody that is potentially making decisions for you.

00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:04.960
Right.

00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:15.200
You also do not, courts do not look kindly on parents in these really litigious high conflict situations standing in the way of therapy.

00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:15.839
Right.

00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:21.440
Because courts are rightfully so worried about how the kid is doing.

00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:23.920
They're like, oh my God, these parents, right?

00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.319
Like, how's this poor kid handling it?

00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:28.160
Or they know the kid's struggling.

00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:28.640
Right.

00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:34.319
And so to be the parent that's like, I'm gonna pause therapy, it's not a good look, right?

00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:47.119
It's not a good look unless you really have, you know, you need to have uh good reason for that and definitely be speaking to your attorney before you do that, do something like that.

00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:47.680
Okay.

00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:57.759
But yeah, just because just because a court orders therapy does not mean usually, sometimes it does, but you can have court-mandated therapy.

00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:02.480
In this case, it sounds like the judge was saying, this kid needs therapy, let's get him in something.

00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:06.160
Yeah, you know, yeah, I think that's how it's making that happen.

00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.000
Yeah, I think that's how it started.

00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:11.200
And I don't know if they said it has to be this therapist.

00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:11.920
Exactly.

00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:13.839
We don't know that part of the right.

00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:34.480
It is often the case that both parents will submit a couple names and and it's sort of like pick from one of these three, because they're keeping in mind that you know a therapist might be full, the hours might not work, the location might not work, and the likelihood that these parents are gonna agree on one person is low.

00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:37.519
So they usually give a couple options, but you don't know.

00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:38.000
Okay.

00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:41.440
You know, we don't know with this case.

00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:47.279
Um and then, okay, so a less less heavy question.

00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:47.759
Yeah.

00:33:48.079 --> 00:34:02.079
So if you have multiple children, do you recommend if they are to go see a therapist, psychologist, um, do you think they go together or should it be individualized, or do you just cater to the situation and the kids?

00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:04.160
Oh, that's a great question.

00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:09.360
Uh, and like all great psychologists, I will respond with it depends.

00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:12.159
Um the classic response.

00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:16.480
I generally opt for different therapists.

00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:21.840
And I think that is because they're different people, different experiences.

00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:42.400
Sometimes with a sibling set that is really tight or really close, or maybe I have an older child that's really parentified and supporting the younger one, um, or a younger child that wouldn't engage in therapy unless the older sibling was there, then we might get creative.

00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:56.559
Um, but typically a lot of times I like them to see therapists in the same practice, or sometimes even the same therapist, if ethically they can do that, um, because they know the family.

00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:02.719
And so there's less opportunities to be swayed.

00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:04.239
Okay.

00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:04.880
Yeah.

00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:05.440
Okay.

00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:23.039
Is because I was getting a lot of parents calling me asking for therapy for their kids because not always necessarily that they knew you know, kid was showing anxiety or some other big issue.

00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:35.039
Um, but because they were like, we're in a high conflict situation, as much as I hate it, we are, and I can't find anybody to take them, and I can't, and my ex won't agree.

00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:39.760
So how do I help my kid if I can't get them in therapy?

00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:40.639
Yeah, you know?

00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:42.880
And so that's where the coaching piece comes in.

00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:47.360
Is because then I can be like, say this, do this, respond this way, you know.

00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:49.440
Yeah, so let's talk more about your coaching.

00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.199
Like how how does it work?

00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:52.719
How do they get in touch with you?

00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.599
What happens once they do get in touch with you?

00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:56.880
Yeah, yeah.

00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:01.760
So learn with little house is is a whole thing right now.

00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:06.480
We have a podcast, we have a masterclass people can take anytime.

00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:10.719
And then I also do like special topic masterclasses once a month.

00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:20.000
That typically is how people find me and sort of get a taste of what how I talk and how I swear and what I talk about and that kind of thing.

00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:21.440
You are from Wisconsin after all.

00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:22.559
I sure am, girl.

00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:23.599
I sure am.

00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:27.920
Um, you can't really take it out of me as as much as we try.

00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:31.039
Um, I don't know that I would want that, but still.

00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:34.159
I so they come in that way.

00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:38.960
And then there's a couple ways people can work and learn the skills.

00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:46.159
So we have some some lower price point products where like a high conflict communication boot camp.

00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:51.199
I'm working on like a tech bundle for FaceTime calls and all that business.

00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:53.280
Um, there's a gaslighting class.

00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:57.360
So people can take things like that, which are more like passive.

00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:09.280
You watch the class, you get a workbook, you work through things, and then all the way up to our most our signature program, which is the kids' first co-parenting system.

00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:11.039
That's an intensive.

00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:12.800
So it's six months.

00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.199
Moms get it's only for moms.

00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:22.960
You get uh over a hundred lessons that are taught by me on really common topics, right?

00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:30.239
So transitions and not putting kids in the middle and how to talk to them when they come home and say something about you.

00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:35.360
Um, and then there's weekly calls with the moms in the group and myself.

00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:37.599
And so you get that live coaching.

00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:38.159
Okay.

00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:39.760
Um, those are Wednesdays.

00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:42.559
I'll do that later today after we get off the phone.

00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:45.760
And that is what moms love.

00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:52.960
I think the call is like the real sauce of then they can come with a specific, like, this is exactly what's happening.

00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:53.840
What do I do?

00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:54.559
Yeah.

00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:56.320
I mean, that's literally what we do.

00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:59.360
Like, what the CFI asked me this question.

00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:00.239
What do you think?

00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:04.239
You know, we reviewed a CFI report recently.

00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:10.719
We've also talked about like, how do I manage when FaceTime calls are being recorded?

00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:16.719
Or these texts are coming through our family wizard, and like I don't know what to do with it.

00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:23.840
Talking parents, and um, all the way down to like the lovey that won't come back from dad's house.

00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:25.920
And what do we do about that?

00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:31.199
So we talk about kind of everything, anything people need, I guess.

00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:34.960
And a huge age span, too, it sounds like, right?

00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:36.239
Yeah, yeah.

00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:38.800
So my specialty is young children.

00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:41.760
That's what I work with clinically most often.

00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:59.199
I am finding that there's a whole lot of concerns and and problems with young kids post-divorce separation, and then it sort of ramps up again when they get to be teenagers and they start to get very independent and feisty.

00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:11.840
Well, I think at that, it's because well, I don't know exactly why, because, but I think part of it is because you know, they the kids start to get old enough to where they can start recognizing what's going on.

00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:18.480
And they may not say it out loud, but just little comments here and there, you're thinking, oh, he or she gets it.

00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:23.519
Um, but then when they get that teenage, I I have a brand new teenager, he just turned 13.

00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:24.239
They get it.

00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:25.199
They get it.

00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:32.079
Yeah, and and and but then they also have that teenage um, I know everything already.

00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:37.280
So yeah, or I get to know all the adult details.

00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.639
And you're like, no, you don't.

00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:38.800
Yeah.

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:40.159
Yeah.

00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:42.159
Like we still don't get to know.

00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:46.800
He's wanting, he oh gosh, he loves like Halloween and scary stuff.

00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:50.000
So he's already asking, can I download these podcasts?

00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:52.639
And I'm like, no, no, I'm 13.

00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:54.320
I'm 13, I can't.

00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:55.920
I'm like, no, you cannot.

00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:56.480
Yeah.

00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:57.360
Um, but yeah.

00:39:57.679 --> 00:39:59.039
That's literally like tomorrow.

00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:10.559
I'm doing a masterclass on tech device and like tech usage and just how you handle when like then he goes to his your co-parents' house and they say, sure, download it.

00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:11.119
Right.

00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:11.679
Yeah.

00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:12.079
Right.

00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:13.360
Let's watch them together.

00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:14.719
Don't tell your mom.

00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:17.039
I know.

00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:20.079
I mean, this is like, this is my world.

00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:25.599
This is the stuff that I'm but then in this scenario, you knew you would be like, what do I say to that?

00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:26.960
Well, how do I handle that?

00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:27.519
Right.

00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:35.119
I mean, when you're when you're together and it's like, don't tell your mom, or if it's, you know, grandparent, like, don't tell your mom I gave you the all this candy.

00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:40.880
You know, those are harmless situations, but yeah, it's a bit different when you get into the high conflict.

00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:45.039
Um, I had a question and it popped right out of my head.

00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.920
Um we're never short on things to talk about.00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:48.800


No, I know.00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:56.480


Oh, um, do you have like a schedule of like if people want to look at and say, like, oh, that's a master class I want to take?00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:58.639


That's a great, that's a good question.00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:10.400


The the best way to be in touch is I'm very active on Instagram, a little less active, but still active on Facebook, and then my website, learnwithlittlehouse.com.00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:13.199


I update it all the time with kind of what's coming on.00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:20.880


And after folks uh enroll or opt into something, then you're on my email list and I send stuff out every week.00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:22.800


Like this is what's coming up.00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:26.880


And the other thing is I really love to hear from the community.00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:38.159


So often my podcast or the classes are directly from the women in my Facebook group or the women in the program are like, we're really struggling with this.00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:39.519


And I'm like, okay, I'll do that.00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:42.320


I'll do a masterclass on that, or I'll do an episode on that.00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:48.559


Um to try to make it as useful as I can for the folks that are using it, you know.00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:49.119


Right.00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:51.360


So what are the what are the handles?00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:53.519


I'll include all those in the show notes too.00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:56.000


But yeah, it's it's learn with little house.00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:56.719


That's everything.00:41:56.800 --> 00:42:04.320


That's the website, all the way across Facebook, YouTube, and then the podcast is called the Kids First Co-Parenting Podcast.00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:04.880


Okay.00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:05.360


Yeah.00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:05.760


Okay.00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:07.280


And I'll have all those links.00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:08.880


So um thank you.00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:10.079


Thanks for sharing those.00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:11.039


I appreciate it.00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:15.360


Well, I I appreciate you coming on and sharing all of this wisdom.00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:17.760


This was such a deep conversation.00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:18.480


I know.00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:19.199


Sorry.00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:20.239


I love it.00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:22.239


I'm way, I'm like so into it.00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:25.760


Usually it's like, how do we protect kids through divorce?00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:26.960


Which is so important.00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:34.159


But my mom's and I think the people listening to your podcast are it's just it's more intense than that.00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:34.880


It is.00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:36.800


It's it's very, very intense.00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.400


Um, do you think is there anything we missed?00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:42.000


I think we covered a lot.00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:43.360


You and I could talk for hours.00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:43.840


I know.00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:44.559


Truly.00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:45.199


I know.00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:45.760


Seriously.00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:51.360


But so yeah, I think there's probably a lot we miss, but nothing that we need to include right now.00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:51.920


Okay.00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:52.639


Okay.00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:54.559


So so wrapping up.00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:55.519


Wrapping up.00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:56.639


Wrapping up.00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:59.519


Um, I think every voice has strength.00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:08.800


So is there a specific strength or message that you would love for listeners to like the lasting message for them to be left with?00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:09.679


Hmm.00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:10.800


Yeah.00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:23.199


You know, I really believe that it takes one person, right?00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:30.159


We know kids who are horribly abused, horribly neglected, really, really awful situations.00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:39.039


And it takes one person to really see you and value you to build resiliency, right?00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.440


And for them to be okay.00:43:44.079 --> 00:44:09.760


And so I really want moms in these tough dynamics to know that like, don't underestimate the power you have as your child's mother, but also just as that calm, steady, like attuned person that is saying, you know, I may not be able to change all this crazy around you, but I can look you in the eyes and I can hold you emotionally and physically, right?00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:11.360


And we're gonna be okay.00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:13.440


We're gonna figure it out, right?00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:15.440


I love that.00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:18.559


I think so many people probably needed to hear that.00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:19.280


Yes.00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:22.400


You can just picture me whispering it in your ear all the time.00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:23.760


Yes, on repeat.00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:24.880


It's gonna be okay.00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:26.159


It's gonna be okay.00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:27.199


Okay, well, Dr.00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:28.960


Royster, thank you so much.00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:30.320


Thank you for having me.00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:31.360


This is delightful.00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:32.239


It was.00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:34.719


I'm gonna have you on Kids First very soon.00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:36.719


Yes, I am excited.00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:37.679


I will definitely do that.00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:40.000


Yeah, I'm gonna schedule you like right after this.00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:40.559


Okay.00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:43.440


All right, my friend.00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:44.159


We'll talk soon.00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:45.440


Okay, yes, absolutely.00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:46.880


All right, take care.00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:48.639


Thank you again, Dr.00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:52.639


Royster, for joining me today, and thank you, Warriors, for listening.00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:54.239


I've included the links Dr.00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:58.719


Royster was referring to as well as her one in three profile in the show notes.00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:02.000


I will be back next week with another episode for you.00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:04.239


Until then, stay strong.00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:09.760


And wherever you are in your journey, always remember you are not alone.00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:19.039


Find more information, register as a guest, or leave a review by going to the website one in threepodcast.com.00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:23.599


That's the number one the number three podcast.com.00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:28.480


Follow one in three on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at one and three podcast.00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:32.800


To help me out, please remember to rate review and subscribe.00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:35.760


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Music written and performed by Tim Crow.