96-How An A.I. Companion Helps Survivors Navigate Abuse, Document Evidence, And Prepare For Court with Anne Wintemute

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Hi Warriors, welcome to One and Three.

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I'm your host, Ingrid.

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Whatever stage you're in in the continuum of abuse, whether you're currently cohabitating, trying to figure out if what you're experiencing is abuse, looking for a safe way to exit, trying to heal, or navigating post-separation abuse, it's very common to feel lost.

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Most victims aren't aware of the resources available or they can't access the ones they do know about.

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My guest today, Anne, is here to change that.

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She's built an AI technology specifically designed for domestic abuse, putting critical guidance and information into the hands of the people who need it the most.

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Here's Anne.

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Hi Anne, I'm so excited to have you here.

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Welcome and thank you for joining me on One and Three.

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Thank you so much for having me, Ingrid.

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I'm really excited to be here.

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Yes.

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So before we get into our topic, could you just give a little background on yourself so we can all get to know you some?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Um, my name is Anne.

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I'm an urban homesteader in Denver, Colorado, here with my family.

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Um, what gets me out of bed every morning is working to really challenge systems, interrogate, if you will, the systems that are failing women and children.

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So that has had me working in evidence-based maternity care.

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That's had me working in childhood education.

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And now in this space of really trying to pair the evidence of what we know about domestic violence and coercive control and unhealthy relationships, really trying to give people who are experiencing that the access to the resources and the support that they need.

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Because right now, this is a huge failing in our system that doesn't only cost a lot of women their lives, but costs uh far more people a quality of life.

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Absolutely.

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And this, I'm so excited, I can't I'm like fumbling over words because I'm really, really excited to jump into this topic.

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Because there are not a there actually, I take that back.

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There are a lot of resources out there.

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They're just not accessible to everyone out there.

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And that's either financially not accessible or location-wise not accessible.

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And that makes a very scary experience for victims and survivors because they think they know what to do, but they're not sure what to do, and they can't, there's really nobody to bounce that off of.

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Certainly as well, um, around having ended up in an unhealthy or even dangerous relationship.

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Um, it's you know, people can't access resources that are behind a wall that says domestic violence unless they feel like, well, that's what happened to me, unless they they self-identify in that way.

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Um, so yeah, there's a lot of reasons that that all of those incredible resources can be hard for people to get at the right time, right?

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As early as possible.

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Yeah.

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And I think a lot of people, and actually a lot of people I personally know, they turn to the internet.

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They Google this just happened, or they go to Chat GPT and say, hey, this happened, what's going on?

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And they're asking advice from sources that may not have a strong domestic violence uh library, I guess, to pull from.

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Yeah, or or so first was the Google.

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Um, uh when people Google their experiences when it's not particularly dynamic, um, like it's you know, AI-generated responses, it's really easy for people to say, well, okay, I read on that website that physical violence is this, this, and this, but he pinched me.

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He didn't slap me.

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So it probably wasn't.

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It wasn't abuse then.

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It wasn't physical violence then.

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There's this um barrier to people accessing um supportive resources when they're not dynamic, right?

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Because people want to believe that they did not end up in that situation.

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Um, and then, you know, when we're talking about using something like generative AI, you know, Chat GPT is actually doing a pretty darn decent job in that space.

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There's some recent research that came out in March that, you know, 91% of the time it was fed information about an abusive relationship, it identified it as such.

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Um, so I know we're not gonna poo-poo on on Chat GPT in that regard, but they don't, you know, they're a generalist tool and they don't have, um, they're not building in what we call an AI vertical, right?

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Like we are making a product for a very specific use.

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That means it's highly trained in that regard, and then all the kind of the back-end engineering and everything that's going on is trained to that specific use case.

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And certainly that's not true of ChatGPT, as well as there's some privacy concerns with ChatGPT as well.

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Yes, and I think people are just becoming aware now of that privacy concern.

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So let's talk about your technology.

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Uh, yeah, so um Amy says uh is the name of our company, and Amy is our AI, and she's built um in this survivor first space, um, like I said, in this vertical of, you know, everything that we're doing is to serve the specific and unique needs of people everywhere from that first red flag, like I went on a weird date, or you know, I'm thinking about going on a date with this person, but I'm not really comfortable with this message that was sent to me, all the way through, you know, the very unfortunate rock bottom.

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I'm afraid I'm gonna lose custody of my children.

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Um, or the court has removed um, you know, my ability to visit the children based on false allegations because I claimed that there was abuse in the relationship.

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So we're really building out in that, uh, in that space.

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Or even the, you know, I'm co-parenting with my abuser, and that's its own special nightmare of post-separation abuse.

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But we took into consideration the things that something like a general AI is never going to do that they can't do.

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Um, privacy is a huge one of those.

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Um, we never train on user data.

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We're not reading the things that people submit to Amy, we're not reading what Amy is saying back to them, because that privacy and confidentiality is both important to the survivor and also in the legal context, you know, whether or not you actually waived confidentiality because you're using an open model, something like ChatGPT.

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Um, and then building inside of the kind of legal prep space, there's some additional protections that people have.

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Um, because you know, if you create documentation or, you know, your timelines, et cetera, in the context of preparing for future litigation, there are um often some additional protections and privacy for that work that are afforded by your state statute.

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Um, but we get to do really exciting things inside of that space.

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So, you know, if you're talking with ChatGPT, you're likely to get a really pretty high-quality conversation about the dynamics that are present in your relationship.

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If you have the same conversation with Amy, she's extracting from that pieces of information that she's putting on a timeline that she's labeling with the different types of abuse that are present, um, that she's going to be able to export for you, that you're going to be able to add to a digital binder that she creates in case you need to go to court.

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So it's really all of those kind of additional layers that that you know, my colleagues and I uh spent in crazy amounts of time thinking through and developing, testing, launching, um, and getting into the hands of folks who really need it.

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Yeah.

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So let's there are there's two different, I guess, um, tiers.

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You can have the free chat feature and then there's the uh paid for services.

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So let's just start with there's not a lot more to explain about the chat feature because it's I think a lot of people are already familiar with that sort of technology.

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Yes.

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So right now, you know, 40,000 people from 150 plus countries have had just anonymous conversations with Amy whenever they need, it's entirely free.

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Um, no data is stored, it disappears.

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And for many people, that is exactly what is needed.

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You know, our AI is trained in in uh course of control, and what what escalates risks, what kind of additional calculations might need to be made, supports that need to be provided in that context that make it a safer, more um uh uh more utilitarian was the word that I'm looking for, tool than just an anonymous chat with with Chat GPT.

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Um, we keep that free and and publicly available.

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We also offer any organization that works with survivors, we can put that free embeddable chat on your website as well.

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So folks do not have to leave it.

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It's free for them, it's free for the organization.

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Um, but we also offer um a subscription model, and that allows us to store the information so Amy remembers you, right, when you come back.

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And some people, that's it.

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They just want, you know, every time they have a chat with Amy, they don't have to re-explain anything.

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Amy has a growing kind of body of information about who you are and what you've experienced it, what you need, what your goals are.

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Um, and then also, you know, all of the kind of data management that is a really unique opportunity of artificial intelligence to tag all of that in the background, label it all, extract key details, put those things on a timeline, and really do the administrative, uh clerical, um, you know, uh paralegal type work that um is incredibly time consuming, re-traumatizing, um, and expensive.

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Certainly, if you're gonna have somebody else try to do it for you.

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Yeah.

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And I've um, I'll be honest, I've played around with it.

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I've told a few friends who are in some difficult situations, and we've looked at it.

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And what's cool is like how you said, there's like a timeline.

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So you can start with today, and you enter in an event for today, and then say, okay, I have a little bit of extra time.

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Let me go back to five years ago.

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This is what happened five years ago, and you can put that in, and it's a lot more organized than like an actual hard copy of a bunch of papers thrown into it.

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Um, the binder feature is really cool.

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And like if you're going to go to court for, I don't know, you're talking about uh custody timesharing, you can ask Amy, and correct me if I'm wrong.

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Like, we haven't gotten this far in playing with it, but you can say, hey, I'm going to court about my son and whether he can have time, whether there should be more time, whether he things should change.

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And Amy will pull the documentation that's in particular to that situation.

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Yes, exactly.

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So, first of all, um binders work because people have been doing their due diligence and documenting things uh as they go.

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If a brand new user comes on and says, build me a binder, you know, Amy is building it from what she knows about you and the things you've uploaded and the documents that you have there and the events that that she's either documented or that you have.

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So it's the binder tool is kind of the product benefit of having maintained a consistent relationship with the AI.

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But you're right, you could be like, well, he hasn't paid his support in X months, and I want to file for enforcement.

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You click the binder button.

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Amy asks you two questions and asks you to name the binder, so you'll be able to, you know, identify it next to another one.

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And then she will, in 30 seconds, pull every chat that you've had about uh that's related to non-payment, the impact of it, every entry that's in there, the documentation that you've uploaded for that.

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She'll put it together in a in a single binder that you know you can add to, that you can export, uh, you know, you can give it to an attorney, you can use it in your own, you know, if you're pro se as a as a self-represented litigant.

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But instead of you combing through, like you were saying, you know, all those loose pieces of paper, you know, we've got those everywhere.

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Oh, I'll remember this.

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I'll just jot it down on a sticky note, and that will be sufficient.

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Uh, she's able to pull all of that together for you.

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Um, it's an incredibly powerful, uh, powerful tool.

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Yeah, and in terms of documents, you can upload your court, your divorce decree or whatever court documents.

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You can upload financial documents as well.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Um, you know, it lists all the different file types.

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She's better at um kind of more narrative format.

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Um, you can't just do a straight Excel spreadsheet particularly well.

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Uh, but she you upload those things, you add them to a conversation so she knows that that's something that you want her to be looking at.

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Um, and she like I could upload six months of uh financial records and say, you know, he says he submitted these in discovery, he says that he can't afford to pay me.

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And um, and she will be like, well, it looks like he spent$16,000 on motorsports, uh, you know, um equipment.

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Um so perhaps the priorities are an issue, um, and and provide that information to you without you having to comb through it.

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Um, certainly orders are a great thing.

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If you have orders um to have in there, um, then when you have any, you know, writing messages to your ex, you can do it in accordance with the expectations that are outlined in those orders.

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It's like having um, you know, we all kind of want an expert on speed dial.

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Um, it's a really high stakes place.

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It's high stakes for us.

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Like if I make a mistake, you know, I'm gonna deal with the consequences.

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If I make a mistake, I could have to deal with legal consequences, or my child deals with consequences.

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It's a lot of pressure.

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And it's really nice to be able to do that with a companion who can see the broader picture, who understands what those goals are.

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Um, you know, certainly we want to save people, we save time, money, and mental health.

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Uh, and and that's what we've trained Amy to do.

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Yeah, and and the more you use her, she gets to know you more.

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So she knows more of the dynamics, uh, the abuse tactics that are being used, and formulates then an answer.

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If you go in and say, Hey, this happens and I need to communicate with my ex, Amy will say, Well, given this information we know of your ex, these are the potential concerns.

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And then helps generate an answer.

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Right.

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If you say, I'm concerned that this could escalate, or he might have a negative response to this.

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She knows all of those times you told her and what kind of flavor of escalation he uses, right?

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So you can help plan through is that a uh a risk that, you know, when I do kind of a risk-benefit analysis, is it a risk that I do want to take?

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How can I mitigate those concerns for escalation?

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Um, she's really a thought partner uh who, like, like you said, remembers all of the things that you shared with her.

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Um, so you don't ever have to go back and explain yourself again.

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Right.

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And then there's even the um, okay, you're sending this.

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Do you want me to help you come up with a response in case that person does their typical response?

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How you go about respond responding to that response, a whole conversation.

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Yes, yeah.

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Um, or it's like preparing for live conversations.

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Um, I'm gonna be at student conferences.

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This is what you know has happened in the past, like role play with me.

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What am I gonna say if this thing happens?

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You know, what do I say if he says this?

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Um, what if he doesn't show up?

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What should I do?

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Because there's so much kind of pre-conversation anxiety.

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Um, you know, we uh, you know, survivors are like, I got caught flat footed so many times.

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I I'm so anxious and anticipating the next time that happens.

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I want to do everything that I can to prepare.

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Um, and it's actually really fun to role play with Amy in a chat, be like, okay, if this, then what do I do?

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Or tell me like three things that he could say to me.

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I don't want to be caught off guard and and really preparing for those moments.

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Right.

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And then you can even use it to anticipate.

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For instance, I have a friend whose son wants to confront uh his father.

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And so uh we were playing around, like, okay, Amy, the son wants to say this.

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How can he say it?

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What should he anticipate?

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You know, what can his response be to what we're expecting his father's response to be?

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Yes.

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And like, first, you know, Amy is trained to support adults.

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Um, so certainly there should be an adult interface to this.

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Like, how can I support my child who's trying to say, um, you know, they really want to do this, they want to, these are my concerns.

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Um, you know, how can I support him in this uh this situation?

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Um, yeah, those are really, really good examples.

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You know, I think a lot of people think, like, oh, I just go and I can talk about abuse.

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Like, no, really dig in.

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This is what I'm trying to get to, but I'm concerned about this.

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How do I think through this?

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Is there a name for this thing?

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Because I find myself chewing on it over and over and over.

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Um, what kind of goals can I set for myself?

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How do I take care of myself in, you know, in the context?

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I feel burnt out.

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I feel, I feel resentful, right?

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Like all of the very colorful, rich tapestry of experiences of victimization and survivorship, those are all areas of exploration and you know, and documentation that Amy's able to go with you.

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And it's so, like how we were talking at the beginning, the lack of accessibility to resources.

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This is something that is very accessible.

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I've spoken with a lot of coaches and they're fabulous.

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And I would still recommend, you know, their services.

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They are really good at what they do.

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Um, but sometimes those come with a higher price tag.

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And it's difficult, especially if there's financial abuse involved, which a lot of times there is.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I used to be a coach.

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This is how I came to this.

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Uh and people would pay me sums of money that like required, I needed to pay my bills to be able to provide that service, right?

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Like we get to charge for our services, but from a human rights perspective, right?

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We live in a world where people are allowed, specifically in the context of an intimate partnership, because we wouldn't tolerate this from anybody else.

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The systems would definitely intervene if you hadn't slept with the person before.

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But the systems, we live in a world that tolerates this ongoing abuse.

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I mean, many of these people are just being like machine gunned, buried in false accusations and you know, uh uh constant harassment.

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They have needs, their children have needs that are ever constant, right?

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They're being harmed actively.

00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:01.319
So we have these people in this situation, and then we say, okay, but there is support.

00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:07.640
It's available, it'll cost you$150 an hour, and you will need 11 hours a week of it, right?

00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:18.359
That that's from a human rights perspective, it's it's unconscionable that we don't have the ability to provide that service for free, right?

00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:21.720
Like free would really be the really be ideal.

00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:32.200
But even within a barely, you know, uh uh accessible range of you know of financial burden, we we just it doesn't, it does not exist.

00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:37.559
And Amy provides the types of services that did not exist, right?

00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:44.279
It's really not just duplicating the same kind of services you can get from an advocate or duplicating the same kind of things you can get from a coach.

00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:46.119
If you have access to those, use them.

00:20:46.440 --> 00:21:00.599
She is really filling out a space which was just white knuckled by the survivor before, or was just internalized, or it was just considered the cost of doing business, you know, with an abusive person.

00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:03.079
You just we don't question it.

00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:05.240
It's just the thing that you have to do.

00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:11.160
And that constant vigilance, that constant stress is literally killing survivors, right?

00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:12.200
It's increasing.

00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:13.400
I'm getting kind of excited here.

00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:14.599
I hope the mic isn't too much.

00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:16.839
Oh, I'm with you, I'm about to jump in here, too.

00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:17.160
Right?

00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:18.519
I'm I'm I'm escalating.

00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:24.599
I feel myself on the kind of the on-ramp of a of a freeway here of righteousness.

00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:26.279
It's killing people.

00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:31.480
It's it's increasing their risk of stroke, of cardiovascular, of heart disease, right?

00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:50.759
Of diabetes, of of uh fibromyalgia, of autoimmune disorders, you know, substance dependency that has a whole host of other potential, you know, physical and mental health implications, CPTSD, anxiety, depression, like increased risk of suicidality.

00:21:51.000 --> 00:22:04.839
These are all things that are the result of the constant stress that comes from having to white knuckle day to day your existence as a victim, as a survivor through post-separation abuse.

00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:17.960
And uh, you know, I'll be darned if I'm gonna rest my head on my final pillow at hopefully, you know, a late 90s age, um, without having done everything that I can to try to stop that.

00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:18.920
Yeah.

00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:24.359
And it's you are as a victim, you didn't choose to be abused.

00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:26.599
An abuser abused you.

00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:40.519
And then because of that, you're now faced, you are faced with the task of if you're still in the relationship, safely extracting yourself from that person, healing yourself.

00:22:40.759 --> 00:23:05.400
And if you have any connections with that person, if you were married, if you have financial commitments with each other, if you have children together, then you go into the world of post-separation abuse, where every thought you have, every action that you do, every word that you say, you have to process through because if you take the wrong step, then you end up looking like the bad guy.

00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:09.799
If you say the wrong thing, now you're the controlling person.

00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:22.680
And it's so hard, it's so scary going into that world, having no person to fall back on, no information to fall back on for any sort of guidance.

00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:33.480
And I mean, there's stories throughout the world where parents, the actual victimized parent, is being removed from children's lives.

00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:33.880
Yes.

00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:39.000
Um, because they're coming in too hot, they're too emotional because that's their kids.

00:23:39.079 --> 00:23:41.799
Their kids are being harmed.

00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:57.400
And yeah, to have a resource to help give you some guidance on what documentation you need, what to say, is so incredibly helpful and so life-changing.

00:23:58.279 --> 00:23:59.960
That's that's absolutely the goal.

00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:04.200
And while you were, you know, describing that, I was just imagining it.

00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:06.839
You're saying, you know, we didn't people didn't ask for this.

00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:08.440
They don't want this, they didn't deserve it.

00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:12.279
It's not, they're not burning through some karma from another lifetime, right?

00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:16.440
And plenty of people listening probably actually think that that's true, which is totally fine.

00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:25.960
I I've I've made many karma jokes, but you know, it's it's a tornado that hits your house and turns it into toothpicks, right?

00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:31.720
And but if a real tornado hits your house and turns it into toothpicks, you have insurance, your neighbors come over, they help clean up the mess.

00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:35.000
Somebody's responsible for helping you get that back together.

00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:38.680
And at a bare minimum, people feel sorry for you, right?

00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:49.000
In this, in this hypothetical tornado, which is being the unwitting target of somebody's emotional, physical, psychological terrorism, right?

00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:52.839
And it's a person who was supposed to love you and and and help take care of you.

00:24:53.160 --> 00:25:03.640
You are like metaphorically in matchsticks and toothpicks, but no one feels sorry for you and no one is coming to help you, right?

00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:09.559
It is you, yours and yours alone, the burden to rebuild that house, to rebuild your life.

00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:19.960
And like you were saying, you know, these protective parents are losing their children because they had the audacity to say he's abusive.

00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:22.039
He's hurting us.

00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:23.240
Please help us.

00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:25.160
He's doing things that shouldn't be allowed.

00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:27.319
Please help us because they have that audacity.

00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:30.839
They're having their children removed from their custody.

00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:38.039
So I'm imagining that you know they're trying to rebuild this house and the big bad wolf just keeps coming over and blowing the dang thing down.

00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:50.279
It is, it defies people think we live in a generally safe world where if I need the system to protect me, it will.

00:25:50.440 --> 00:26:00.599
Like if there comes a day where I have to raise my hand and say, I'm being harmed, and I know that there are laws and expectations that should help me and support me.

00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:02.519
People believe that it will happen.

00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:06.680
They put their heads on their pillows at night believing it will happen.

00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:08.119
And it's a lie.

00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:14.039
It is a lie, it's a lie we tell ourselves, people who've never been victimized.

00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:24.039
It's a lie that we say directly to people who've been victimized and who are crying and trying to tell us that it's not true, that we can't live our lives believing that that thing's true and that it needs to be changed.

00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:25.160
Absolutely.

00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:37.559
And, you know, the this is the scenario where people are raising their hands saying, I need help, I've been abused, where then society, the legal system, and everyone looks at you and says, Prove it.

00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:38.680
Prove it.

00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:53.240
Okay, some people have bruises, some people have broken bones, but even those individuals have a difficult time proving where they came from or prove that they didn't ask for it, they didn't do something, and this was just their the retaliation.

00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:55.880
Of course, that happened to you because what did you do?

00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:57.000
I mean, that's the thing.

00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:02.599
You're living in these matchsticks now, and everyone's asking you, well, what did you do to bring the tornado to you?

00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.440
Yes, yes.

00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:07.079
Uh yeah, I exactly.

00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:08.839
What did you do to bring this tornado?

00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:13.960
It is really hard to back up a little bit.

00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:18.119
This concept of proof and truth.

00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:23.240
We are raised to tell the truth.

00:27:24.039 --> 00:27:25.319
The truth is really important.

00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:27.559
We're told that it's bad to lie.

00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:32.039
And we hold dearly to that truth.

00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:38.839
A lot of victims, I mean, their their willingness to be like, but no, it was like this is part of what keeps them entrapped in these relationships.

00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:45.319
It's the it's the the the crowbar, right, that abusers used to distort people's sense of reality.

00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:49.000
Like, I believe that if I tell the truth, that will work.

00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:54.279
It turns out when two people are telling different truths, right?

00:27:54.440 --> 00:28:12.839
And one is of the um uh kind of culturally dominant, if you will, I mean, speaking specifically to men, um, the kind of culturally dominant, and one is from the culturally um uh non-dominant, truth becomes a whole new thing.

00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:16.680
Truth is no longer the thing that we thought it was when we grew up.

00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:22.440
It was no longer um what was, you know, observable, um, documentable.

00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:32.279
It suddenly becomes a who has power in this particular relationship, who has power in this particular space, because that's the person who's going to be given preferential truth.

00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:36.759
So if I come in and I say, he pushed me down the stairs and I have a picture of it.

00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:39.079
Like I have a picture of the damage.

00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:43.799
All he has to do is say, This is what I'm talking about, your honor.

00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:45.400
It doesn't matter what I do.

00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:46.599
She fell down the stairs.

00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:47.240
I was there.

00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:51.960
I went to the bottom of the stairs to try to take care of her in that moment, and and she slapped me away.

00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:56.359
But like, this is what I'm trying to tell you is that she will falsely accuse me of anything.

00:28:56.680 --> 00:28:58.279
Okay, where is that truth now?

00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:03.079
And I'm sorry if anyone was listening and that was triggering, it was almost triggering for me to just say it out loud.

00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:05.160
Wait, what is true now?

00:29:05.799 --> 00:29:32.920
Because unfortunately, what is more likely to be true in that moment is that she will be stigmatized, she'll be victim blamed, or or um, you know, that not even victim blamed, she will be institutionally gaslit because we are as a society culturally, systemically, more likely to believe that the man was falsely accused than that he is a perpetrator.

00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:34.519
We're more likely to believe him.

00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:36.039
So what's true now?

00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:42.920
Yes, and I have it sort of along the same lines, but then I'm I think we're both going on tangents, and that's fine.

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:44.119
I am fired up.

00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:45.640
I am here for it.

00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:56.519
Um I was reading about parental alienation, and that's a big topic that I am very interested in, and I just can't soak in enough information about it.

00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:04.680
But there was a study, I think that was probably multiple studies actually, um, conducted all over the world, but this one happened to be in Canada.

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:18.119
And what they were looking at is how it's more forgivable for a man to abuse his children, or even if it's not his children, abuse his partner in front of the children.

00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:24.279
There are children involved, whether active victims or passive, I suppose, victim watching.

00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:27.319
I can't think of observational, whatever.

00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:31.559
Um my head is going way too fast for my mouth.

00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:46.599
So it's more forgivable for that man to abuse and say, Oh, yeah, I did that, I'm so sorry, than it is for the mother to say, you know, to for the mother to have not immediately left, ran away with the children.

00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:51.240
Because then you're looked at, well, why did you keep them in that environment?

00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:54.920
You're not a great mom because you kept them in that environment.

00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:56.599
But yes, he did it.

00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:58.519
We know he did it, but he's sorry.

00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:03.079
But you are responsible for not protecting the children from this.

00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:08.279
Not that the perpetrator was responsible for not offending in front of the children or not offending.

00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:13.240
I mean, when we are, when we abuse the mother of the child, we abuse the children, right?

00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:20.839
We are abusing, we are making weaker, um, harming the person who is their primary support system.

00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:29.559
And I would argue that the whole concept of exposure to abuse is really just we're not that comfortable saying directly, if you abuse the mother of the children, you're abusing the children.

00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:34.759
Um yeah, it's you are um you are absolutely right.

00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:44.519
Uh that we are much more comfortable looking for accountability, if you will, in the under, um, in the underdog.

00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:52.440
We want to place accountability on the underdog, and we absolutely fail to see that the accountability you know belongs to the perpetrator.

00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:59.000
And actually, this is something that I haven't talked about in a while, um, but that I think about a lot.

00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:02.119
It's somewhat spiritual almost.

00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:04.039
I'm gonna stick it out there anyways.

00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:06.920
The universe demands accountability.

00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.359
When there is harm, there is accountability.

00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:15.640
I believe there's control over that harm, and I believe there's control over that uh that accountability.

00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:22.119
But what ends up happening is one person causes harm, and that person doesn't want the accountability.

00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:29.480
So that accountability ends up absorbed by the victim, by the children, um, by you know, other kind of peripheral things.

00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:35.319
And we have institutionalized that when exactly what you said happens.

00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:38.680
Well, he's caused this harm, and why didn't you leave and protect the children?

00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:46.440
We have taken, he has caused the harm, and we have redistributed the accountability for that to the innocent, right?

00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:51.400
To the people who didn't make the choice to to perpetrate, to offend, to cause harm.

00:32:51.559 --> 00:33:06.839
And we see that little story, vignette, if you will, played out in a billion different examples where I, you know, it I'm trying to think of another one, but there's just so many, it becomes a bottleneck in my brain.

00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:18.440
That they the universe demands that accountability, and we are much more comfortable assigning that to the protective parent, to the person who isn't going to get outraged with us, then to the person it belongs to.

00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:22.839
And when we talk about alienation, so you know, I love the Joan Myers study.

00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:35.559
You know, if if a protective parent, typically the mother, and this is bears out in this study, comes forward and says, um, he's abusive, um, there's child abuse, or God forbid, announcing that there was child sexual abuse.

00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:40.279
And then he says, um, well, she is she's alienating the children from me.

00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:50.359
Now, mind you, it's it is real likely that the children are not wanting to spend time with a scary parent who abuses them or abuses their primary attachment figure.

00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:59.160
But in that when that happens, we redistribute the blame, the accountability to that protective parent.

00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:04.839
Because by saying, no, this is parental alienation, he's saying, I'm not willing to take accountability for it.

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:09.880
And for some reason, like we just are very comfortable.

00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:15.000
It happens like under our noses without even us feeling like we are recognizing it or seeing it happening.

00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:27.400
We have landed squarely on the shoulders of the victim, of the person trying to create safety, squarely on her shoulders now is the accountability for the harm that the perpetrator caused.

00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:28.519
Yes.

00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:44.920
And, you know, there's so many studies of how children benefit from having time with the mother and the father, but those are in stable, home, amicable, uh, cohesive, co-parenting situations.

00:34:45.079 --> 00:35:00.199
There, I don't there are not a lot of studies, uh, if any like true, really good studies showing what happens to the children when they have equal time with both parents, if one of those parents is abusive.

00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:03.320
And maybe not even necessarily abusive to the children.

00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:05.079
And that's what the court looks at too, right?

00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:07.639
Well, they're they're not abusing the children.

00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:10.440
It was they were abusing you, not the children.

00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:29.320
But then you go into those, you see the same patterns happening, the whole same manipulation, the same emotional trauma um abuse, psychological abuse happening to the children because now they're used as pawns to continue control over the victimized parent.

00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:30.760
Yes.

00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:33.000
And and two things can't be true.

00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:45.960
We can't say children across the board without um caveat are best served when they have uh you know unfettered frequent access to both parents.

00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:56.679
You cannot say that and assume that it holds true in the context of one of those parents being abusive, and also say child abuse increases your risk of an early death, right?

00:35:56.840 --> 00:36:12.519
We can look at adverse childhood experiences and we know that if someone is a victim of child abuse or if they are, and they use language like exposed to domestic violence, I think that's a little more separate than is a real true lived experience for children who live with an abusive parent.

00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:15.400
We can't say though both of those things are true.

00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:21.559
We know child abuse, we know that exposure to domestic violence literally takes years off of their lives.

00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:27.400
Like I can't think of another way to say that they're just harmful than to say it increases your risk of dying of cancer.

00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:28.519
Right?

00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:31.239
We can't say both of those things are true.

00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:32.440
One of them can't be true.

00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:35.639
The protective parents have been screaming for that for a really long time.

00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:44.519
And yet, that um, you know, presumption that equal access to parents or at least frequent access to both parents is what's best for the kids.

00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:51.000
It it's um, I hear it and I see a figurative fish slap me across the face.

00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:58.199
I'm just dumbfounded that I that people can hold those two things and not recognize the dissonance in it.

00:36:58.519 --> 00:36:58.760
Right.

00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:32.519
And then you have the average person going into this whole system, scared, emotionally traumatized, trying to navigate how to do all of this without any resources, without all of that data, without, you know, maybe not even an attorney or it's a quarterboy attorney who's just doing their, you know, moving through the motions, not necessarily advocating for the I'm not, I'm not going to get into a lot of a lot of the legal stuff because that's another tangent I'll go on and I'm gonna piss off people.

00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:35.000
So I'm not going to do that.

00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:38.840
But you have all these individuals, and there's a lot of us.

00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:40.039
There are a lot.

00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:44.519
I mean, statistically, one in three, but it's more.

00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:50.360
It's definitely more because not all people have reported their abuse.

00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:52.039
They have it's not documented.

00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:57.719
So those statistics, I believe, are not even truthfully acting truly accurate.

00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:12.760
Um, and so all of these people are going in, navigating, like I said, emotionally traumatized, feeling completely over their head and overwhelmed with everything.

00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:27.639
And then you have typically an abuser who is able to not feel any kind of empathy and go in and they're calm and collected and well put together and well spoken and very, I didn't push her down the stairs.

00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:29.079
They have no problems lying.

00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:38.119
Yeah, well, and they get to walk into what is arguably a really um uh scary, overwhelming, tense.

00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:39.639
You know, talking about going to court.

00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:45.079
Like, you know, most people won't go to court uh, you know, at any time in their lives.

00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:46.360
And we try to avoid it.

00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:53.639
We actively do whatever we can to make sure that we don't end up standing in front of a judge unless, you know, we have a hand behind somebody else who we're just there to support.

00:38:53.880 --> 00:39:03.480
And and the victim does that in the context of complex post-traumatic stress disorder, right?

00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:06.920
And and being, you know, triggered in that moment.

00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:16.760
And then the perpetrator gets to do that having little to no um psychological impact of abuse because it didn't happen to them, right?

00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:17.320
Right.

00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:35.400
So it's um it's like letting someone go into a race totally prepared on a full stomach, um, having everything that they could, you know, all of the tools at their fingertips to be able to do it, and then sticking somebody else in that same race, uh, you know, with really terrible shin splints and both of their arms cut off.

00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:42.199
And oh, by the way, at the last minute, we might blindfold her and tell her that all the evidence she has isn't something she can submit anyways.

00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:56.360
It's um we are systematically disadvantaging the person who needs the most from the system, who has the most to gain in terms of ethical gains from the system.

00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:00.599
Uh, we we disadvantage them from the outset.

00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:02.519
And that's even that's just in the legal context.

00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:17.239
I mean, that these people, these survivors, the victims, they're experiencing these same things when they go to work, when they try to find the right therapist, when they need a doctor who can understand them, uh, you know, and their experiences and how those might impact their, you know, their current, you know, mental and physical health.

00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:28.760
It's it, yeah, I I don't know how else to describe it other than saying, you know, you're asking this person to run a race without any of the faculties that person needs to be able to run the race.

00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:29.480
Yeah.

00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:31.239
Oh, and you're telling them it's their fault.

00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:32.039
Right, right.

00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:33.079
Yes.

00:40:33.320 --> 00:40:39.400
I'm gonna take everything away from you, tell you it's your fault, and say, fix this, approve it, fix it.

00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:49.639
Uh and so yeah, Amy is a great tool to help anybody going into any of those situations, like if you're in it trying to figure out how to get out safely.

00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:53.960
That I mean, that's number one priority is is you know, safety.

00:40:54.199 --> 00:40:59.960
And yeah, the aftermath is a truly new kind of hell.

00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:05.159
And I think that's something that will be incredibly helpful for individuals.

00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:12.519
You talked about gaslighting and uh gaslighting from from the abuser, and then the systematic gaslighting.

00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:17.079
But then that there was a topic that you and I were talking about, a term that was new to me.

00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:20.280
So um, what is it, distorted nostalgia?

00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:22.519
Yeah, distorted nostalgia.

00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:29.239
It's kind of this idea that, and it's it's definitely uh as a relationship with trauma bonding as well, um, right?

00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:33.960
And that trauma bonding, like someone objectively from the outside of the relationship could be like, that's super not healthy.

00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:40.920
I'm not sure how you could could possibly feel safe around that person, but the person in it, um, right, is in this kind of cyclical bond.

00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:46.039
Uh, and this distorted nostalgia is not totally dissimilar from that.

00:41:46.199 --> 00:41:54.280
It's that kind of looking back and finding things, um, remembering things is more positive than they were or more meaningful than they were.

00:41:54.440 --> 00:42:01.960
Uh, it's it's not entirely different from kind of euphoric recall where we completely, you know, rewrite, like, it was the most amazing thing ever.

00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:16.280
Um, but it's it is one of those things, especially shortly after, like when maybe in the first couple of years, sorry, but in the context of abuse recovery, a couple of years is considered short, that that people find themselves revisiting.

00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:20.119
It's like, oh, well, I guess that, but that was that positive thing, right?

00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:24.920
There was, and that was actually it was really warm, it was really thoughtful, that thing that that he did.

00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:28.360
And it it is like an internal gaslight, right?

00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:34.280
Whereas if you really like kind of dissected that experience, it might be like, well, that was really wonderful.

00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:38.760
Well, he did, he did like blow up on me on that vacation too.

00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:43.000
And actually, I was feeling pretty timid and you know, embarrassed after that blow up.

00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:53.320
And when you really start digging at it, you can recognize the distortions and the nostalgic way that that you look back on, you know, shared memory that you have with someone.

00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:55.800
Um, so I guess you know, we put that out in our newsletter.

00:42:55.880 --> 00:43:00.360
It's just it's good to have names for things that you might experience or might be confusing.

00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:02.519
Um, and a lot of people do, they experience that.

00:43:02.599 --> 00:43:05.400
They look back and think, like, oh, well, that was really wonderful.

00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:11.320
Um, but with a little deeper thought, can start to see that the abuse was present in that in some way as well.

00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:18.199
Yeah, and I think even just knowing that these terms exist is also validating in a way.

00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:24.519
Because I know for myself, I've gone back and I've thought, well, did it really happen that way?

00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:28.360
Or was it not as bad as I thought?

00:43:28.519 --> 00:43:29.159
You know what?

00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:30.519
I don't think it was.

00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:35.559
Because like that really nice thing happened before, that really nice thing happened after.

00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:39.719
So maybe that part in the middle wasn't as ugly as I thought it was.

00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:49.000
And yeah, it's that eternal gaslight where you're just constantly questioning, you know, for a long time afterward of did it really happen that way?

00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:51.000
Was it was it really abuse?

00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:53.880
And then you you're like, Well, yeah, yeah, it was.

00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:54.679
Yep.

00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:56.679
Was it was it really abuse?

00:43:56.840 --> 00:44:03.800
Um, there isn't a survivor who didn't ask themselves that many, many times, um, and who might not still be, right?

00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:05.639
Asking, asking themselves that.

00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:08.840
And it's normal for there to be positive times, right?

00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:20.280
Because if the person was horrible and scary and intimidating and belittling and degrading and, you know, and uh all of the time, you probably wouldn't have stayed in that relationship.

00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:25.639
Uh it's the back and forth, it's the hot and the cold, it's the reseeking of those positive times.

00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:38.119
So there will be, those positive times will exist retrospectively, um, with a lot of um uh kind of building of understanding and and educating yourself about your own experience.

00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:44.199
It's impossible to see those as distinctly separate from the bad times, right?

00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:48.519
Because the bad times play into the good times, play into the bad times.

00:44:48.679 --> 00:45:01.159
It's that loop um that is so um it can be so intoxicating, um, which can really build so much of that that trauma bonding um and and make yourself your best gaslighter, right?

00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:05.400
You can gaslight yourself, you know, even in the absence of it of it being done to you.

00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:09.079
Um that's uh that is a normal experience.

00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:11.719
That doesn't mean that the abuse didn't happen.

00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:23.239
Uh it's it's really just kind of this this weakness of our um human psychology, uh, and and part of why we're vulnerable to these relationships to begin with.

00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:31.320
Well, and I think journaling, which we kind of talked with that, Amy does, but like Amy will you can do journaling and keep a time.

00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:33.400
We did talk about the timeline.

00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:38.760
Um, but yeah, you can enter those things in and just put them there.

00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:49.800
Like, oh, this happened and maybe it wasn't so bad, but um just have it there and then with the accumulation of information, you can go back, you can look and see it for yourself.

00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:50.920
Yep.

00:45:51.079 --> 00:46:00.039
Yeah, it's a it's a really um effective kind of guidance point for people who especially have just left um or really questioning whether or not it was abusive.

00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:00.920
Just write down.

00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:08.760
Just write down the things that happened because it's really being able to see them in, you know, in the the um totality that's so important.

00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:14.119
And with Amy, like if you have a subscription, if you have an account, you just talk to Amy.

00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:15.079
She's gonna ask questions.

00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:17.639
Was ever anything else that happened that was similar to that?

00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:23.639
You feel like you're just having this conversation and she is she is extracting that information and putting it onto a timeline.

00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:30.119
You don't ever even have to look at it if you don't want to, just knowing that it's there if you need it.

00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:31.800
Um, but certainly people do.

00:46:31.880 --> 00:46:37.239
They'd like to go over it, they take a look and see the patterns, see how often certain types of things happened.

00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:48.519
And it really helps in those moments where your head is spinning and you're really not sure what directions up to see it right there, kind of let's say written in stone, but computers are literally the opposite of stone.

00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:55.480
And okay, and so you mentioned how many people has Amy reached?

00:46:55.880 --> 00:47:02.679
There's been like 40,000 people from over 150 countries that have talked to Amy, which is just incredible.

00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:26.360
Um, and there's three of us on the team, you know, when we think about the scale and access and the role that technology like this, kind of digital health tools in general, have played in giving people access to their own experiences, helping people pair, you know, really bringing together all of the incredible research and the body of knowledge, right down to people's own experiences, right into their pockets.

00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:29.239
You know, this is what digital health is, right?

00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:31.960
This is certainly what you know, what we're trying to build.

00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:36.039
And the scale is is insane.

00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:50.039
This is an incredible time and opportunity to be building for what is one of the largest global public health issues that has never been addressed at scale ever before.

00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:50.760
Yeah.

00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:54.519
And you guys didn't just create Amy and then wash your hands of it.

00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:56.760
You're always going in and right.

00:47:57.480 --> 00:47:57.800
Yeah.

00:47:58.119 --> 00:47:59.800
Amy, it's it's kind of like laundry.

00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:00.760
You're never done, right?

00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:05.079
Uh and as soon as you finish a load and you're like, oh, this new feature, we just finished a load.

00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:09.320
Um, all of the other features that you want to build is a growing pile of laundry.

00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:13.719
Um, although it's a lot more fun to build in this space than laundry.

00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:18.679
And um, when you do your laundry, people don't send you emails of depth of gratitude.

00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:22.119
But if they did, that would make laundry a lot more fun.

00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:23.000
Wouldn't it?

00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:25.400
I mean, my kids don't appreciate it.

00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:28.920
It's just magical to them.

00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:33.880
Um, okay, so how would somebody, how does somebody access Amy?

00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:39.719
Go to amys.com and it's A-I-M-E-E, is how you spell her name.

00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:41.079
Amy Sus.com.

00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:42.039
You can use it on your phone.

00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:43.239
It's mobile optimized.

00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:49.079
There's nothing that you have to download, um, which is great, especially if you need a lot of privacy and confidentiality around it right now.

00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:51.559
Those free conversations, have as many as you want.

00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:52.440
They're totally free.

00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:53.320
They disappear.

00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:55.800
If you need more, we are building for you.

00:48:55.880 --> 00:48:58.039
Um, and we'd love for you to subscribe.

00:48:58.119 --> 00:48:59.559
It's$20 a month.

00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:05.880
Uh, you know, you can get an annual subscription for less than a 30-minute phone call with an attorney.

00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:17.239
Um, Amy saves people insane amounts of money uh uh in you know utilizing much more expensive systems or in making those systems more effective for them when they do need to utilize them.

00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:21.320
Um and is there a quick exit feature?

00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:24.599
Yes, there is a quick exit on both mobile.

00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:29.960
If you have any concerns about someone looking over the shoulder, um do click that quick exit button.

00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:34.199
If you're having a an anonymous chat, a free chat, it's entirely gone.

00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:38.519
Um, it will just uh divert you away and log you out if you have an account.

00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:39.480
Perfect.

00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:51.480
And is there a way, because I know you're constantly improving and adding, is there a way for anybody to give you feedback if they're using Amy and they notice they do like something, they don't like something?

00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:57.480
Yes, any of the support or feedback buttons um or contact buttons, they come directly to my inbox.

00:49:57.559 --> 00:50:01.559
Um it's me that you're talking to, um, which uh is super fun.

00:50:01.719 --> 00:50:04.519
I want to stay as close to all of our users as possible.

00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:06.039
And we do, we hear all sorts of stuff.

00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:13.400
We hear from our users, you know, if I if we have a an AI partner that's down, we found out first because someone was like, hey, Amy's not responding.

00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:23.000
I it's um there are um our warning system, our alarm bells, and generate the entirety of all of the new concepts that we that we built.

00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:26.920
So please, yes, use those support and contact buttons and it will go directly to me.

00:50:27.239 --> 00:50:35.719
Uh one of the other features we didn't talk about is that you can involve professionals in your your profile, correct?

00:50:36.039 --> 00:50:36.679
Yes, yeah.

00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:39.800
So if you have an account, you can assign team members.

00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:45.960
So people will assign an attorney as a team member, and that means their attorney can come on, access it, grab the kinds of information that they need.

00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:47.559
Same thing with a therapist.

00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:50.440
Um, if you're working with a DV advocate, same thing there.

00:50:50.519 --> 00:51:08.119
Um, and one of the potential benefits of having any one of those three, because those all have confidentiality expectations, is the opportunity for potentially having additional confidentiality applied to your account in the event that that an ex is asking, requesting for its contents and discovery.

00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:09.800
Um we haven't had that happen yet.

00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:11.800
Um I'm knocking on wood here.

00:51:11.960 --> 00:51:16.840
Uh um, but we're doing everything that we can to keep those accounts as private and safe as possible.

00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:17.559
Okay.

00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:21.320
And one, and I can edit this out if we don't have an answer to it.

00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:29.079
Um I've heard of stories of where Chat GPT has given some very poor advice.

00:51:29.239 --> 00:51:33.480
I read an article, and I don't, I'll be honest, I did not fact check it.

00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:43.719
I saw it saw it on Facebook, but where it said one of the other AI services recommended that a child end his life.

00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:50.519
Um and I like I said, I don't know how true that situation was, but it's true.

00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:51.239
It is true.

00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:54.679
And this is like a broader conversation.

00:51:56.280 --> 00:52:01.159
AIs um are not flawless, they're not perfect.

00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:14.840
Um, there is an expectation of responsibility on behalf of the user uh uh as an informed user, um, as a user who is intending to um you know derive benefit and support from that system.

00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:32.519
There are populations of people, um, children especially being incredibly vulnerable to this, who won't always be able to exercise the degree of judgment that can keep them like it's like you know, if I'm driving a car, there's a risk of driving the car, right?

00:52:32.599 --> 00:52:35.559
I I have to learn how to do that thing safely.

00:52:35.719 --> 00:52:39.639
Um, you know, things come up, I need to make a judgment decision in that moment.

00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:44.679
And utilizing AI is not um is not necessarily hugely different from that.

00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:50.440
It is it is very important to be an informed user of whatever tool it is that you're using.

00:52:50.519 --> 00:53:10.519
Um and there are really they're they're true stories and they're devastatingly sad stories of people who um were engaging with an AI in a way that caused that AI to make um statements or recommendations that um that were lethal and instances where people did, in fact, take those recommendations.

00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:15.400
Uh there's it it's it's a difficult thing to solve for.

00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:27.719
Um, it requires some redundancy in those systems to make sure that they are not um saying things that could be construed as or or that are literally um uh making recommendations that a person harmed themselves.

00:53:27.880 --> 00:53:32.760
Um and also that is there's partly the use of the tool and how that's happening.

00:53:32.920 --> 00:53:35.559
So please use AI responsibly.

00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:41.960
Um, if you're having a mental health crisis, an AI is not the tool for you.

00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:48.199
An AI is not a crisis response tool, um, but they're really good around those crises.

00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:54.599
I think it's really important to be an informed, um, educated utilizer of any tool that you're using.

00:53:55.000 --> 00:53:57.239
And it also doesn't take the place of a therapist.

00:53:57.400 --> 00:54:01.320
I mean, it can help you go pro se, but yeah, the actual thing is.

00:54:01.639 --> 00:54:06.599
And and it will, you know, a good support system will absolutely improve your mental health.

00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:14.920
But a therapist is trained to make a diagnosis, for example, which is something that an AI can't do, to create a treatment plan, to monitor your progress along that treatment plan.

00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:18.679
I mean, there are specific things that a therapist can do that an AI can't.

00:54:18.920 --> 00:54:21.639
Now, does an AI provide legal benefit?

00:54:21.800 --> 00:54:23.639
Does it provide mental health benefit?

00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:26.440
Um, I would say that it that it absolutely does.

00:54:26.679 --> 00:54:42.519
But there are areas of training that AIs can't provide, and partly because they can't make decisions on your behalf, uh, and that we will continue to need people, um, real humans to be able to do.

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:47.639
Which is comforting because we want humans around.

00:54:48.920 --> 00:54:49.239
Okay.

00:54:49.639 --> 00:54:51.400
Ann, is there anything we missed?

00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:57.079
I love this conversation, even though we would we did kind of go off a little bit, but that was that made it more exciting.

00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:58.599
That makes it more interesting.

00:54:58.840 --> 00:55:07.719
Um, you know, my my life, um, what I have, you know, to to speak about is way more than than you know what an AI can do.

00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:12.679
Um, but it certainly makes me passionate about trying to solve the problem uh with technology.

00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.559
No, I I think we I think we did a good job.

00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:17.400
I think we covered a lot of ground.

00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:18.920
Okay, I think so too.

00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:26.440
So before we close, do you have any parting words of strength or encouragement that you would like to leave with listeners?

00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:31.079
Uh how about the one I say a lot?

00:55:31.239 --> 00:55:33.239
Um, this too shall pass.

00:55:33.559 --> 00:55:37.639
It may pass like a kidney stone, but this too shall pass.

00:55:38.119 --> 00:55:41.800
Yeah, and some have one hell of a kidney stone, but yes.

00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:42.760
Yes.

00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:45.239
Um, take care of yourself, love yourself.

00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:49.960
You're not alone in this, even though you feel you know desperately alone.

00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:53.079
Uh, there is there is another side.

00:55:53.320 --> 00:56:01.320
And um, I wish I could hold hands with everybody who's in that that traveling space um because it can be really dark and scary.

00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:03.480
Yes, it can.

00:56:03.639 --> 00:56:05.800
And thank you so much, Ann.

00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:09.960
Thank you, Amy, for for being out there.

00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:17.880
But I really appreciate your time coming on today and the development of Amy, which I think is going to be incredibly, incredibly helpful.

00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:22.519
Thank you so much, Ingrid, for having me on and helping share what we're working on.

00:56:22.840 --> 00:56:27.320
Thank you again, Anne, for joining me today, and thank you, Warriors, for listening.

00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:33.159
I've included the website Anne was referring to as well as her one in three profile link in the show notes.

00:56:33.400 --> 00:56:36.519
I will be back next week with another episode for you.

00:56:36.760 --> 00:56:38.679
Until then, stay strong.

00:56:38.840 --> 00:56:44.119
And wherever you are in your journey, always remember you are not alone.

00:56:46.760 --> 00:56:53.559
Find more information, register as a guest, or leave a review by going to the website oneinthreepodcast.com.

00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:58.119
That's the number one the number three podcast.com.

00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:03.079
Follow one in three on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at one and three podcast.

00:57:03.400 --> 00:57:07.400
To help me out, please remember to rate review and subscribe.

00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:10.519
One and three is a point five Panoy production.

00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:27.559
Music written and performed by Tim Crowd.