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Hi, Warriors, welcome to Win and Three.
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I'm your host, Ingrid.
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Shame.
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It's an all-too familiar feeling for I'm going to be bold here and say every victim and survivor of domestic violence.
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My guest today dives deep into shame, what it does to our inner psyche, how to recognize it, and what we should do about it.
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Please join me in welcoming Emma.
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Hi, Emma.
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Thank you for joining me today.
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Thank you so much.
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Great to be here, Ingrid.
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Yes, I'm thrilled to have you.
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So before we get into our conversation, could you give some of a background so people get to know you a little bit?
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Okay.
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Well, um I fairly recently discovered all my life I've really suffered from feeling not good enough.
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I thought it was ugly, I thought I was stupid, all the all the things, right?
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And I thought I was the problem.
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I thought I was from, you know, good family, I was loved and everything.
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So it was all I knew.
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But when I broke my leg a year ago, I started to realize that my family was more dysfunctional and that my mom was quite manipulative.
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And I started to put together that she actually fits all the traits of a covert narcissist and that my family is quite enmeshed and guilting.
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And I'm then I started to identify.
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Well, I started to identify before I identified that she was a covert narcissist, that I had been kind of the scapegoat within this dysfunctional system.
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And once the once I realized that, I was like, yes, I take every single box of the scapegoat.
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And what happens with the scapegoat is that you kind of get to be the lad and fill for all the shame and unprocessed crap of the family.
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So you end up internalizing shame, you know, with beliefs like I'm stupid, I'm ugly, I'm you know, all the things, I hate my body, I'll never amount to anything, all those things, they don't just land in a child's brain by for no reason.
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They happen because there's the environment kind of stirs them up and reinforces them.
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So when I started to see that, I started to really take back my power.
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And because I realized that shame is the underlying problem.
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I had been doing um all this healing, all this therapy for years and years, or for a decade, maybe 15, 20 years really.
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And it was kind of like taking one step forward and one step back, two steps forward and two steps back constantly, like just doing feng shui in the furniture when the house is on fire.
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And once I started to realize the deeper pattern in my family, I realized that this really is the thing that's keeping it all in place.
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It's it's shame.
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Um, because you know, even though you're doing all the manifesting and thinking about the positive, if you've got shame going on in the background, it's like this anchor that keeps pulling you down to the bottom of the ocean.
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And uh, because shame says you can't, or it's not safe.
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And uh, you know, that was that was where I was.
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I was just going round and round in circles until I revealed this underlying pattern.
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And then I started to realize, you know, that I had internalized this voice, and that that was where the inner narcissist idea came from.
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And also I started to see that this kind of narcissistic patterns happen everywhere, you know, particularly where you have the scapegoat, the enabler, and the the kind of narcissist, the autocrat.
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I started to see, wow, this this echoes everywhere.
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You see it in corporations, you see it in families, obviously, because that's where at first inverts we internalize it.
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You see it in governments.
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Uh, all leaders kind of have this narcissistic template, and they all operate on the currency that is shame.
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This is how they control people, and this is how we internalize that system because it's so normalized, and this is how we think that it's the best way to control ourselves.
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We're like, we don't like what we're doing, so we shame ourselves in the hope that we'll change.
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But uh really it it doesn't work because shame just makes you small, it makes you shrink, it makes you feel like you're being attacked.
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And it's actually a very poor indicator for long, medium to long term changes of behavior.
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It works in the moment.
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Like if I chain a child here because they're bothering me, they'll still be quiet very quickly.
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But in the it doesn't change their behavior in the medium to long term, and this is like shame has just been so normalized in our toxic culture.
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Um this is this it's really the the cornerstone of so many, so many different pathologies that people have, you can trace them back to shame.
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I was on a podcast about addictions yesterday, and you know, the really this this woman, the woman that I was speaking to, they all had, you know, they're really related to it about how I speak about shame because it is that voice that tells you, who are you?
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And you when you drink, you kind of put paws on it.
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And the same I was on a podcast about bulimia, and again, it's shame.
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It's like this, it's not even the belief that you're bad, you're faulty, you're dysfunctional.
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It's like self-annihilation.
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That's what shame is.
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It's a toxic cocktail of, you know, the belief that I'm bad is downstream from this toxic cocktail of uh emotions like self-loathing, anger turned inwards, sadness, depression.
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It's like self-attack.
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And we're told that it's good for you.
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We're told that shame is good for you and that you need a bit to be a good person.
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And I just think that's complete BS.
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That's complete gaslighting by society.
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And I understand where it's coming from.
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It's coming from a society where shame is so normalized that people think that it's part of what it is to be human and to be a good person.
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But I would argue that we don't need shame to be a good person.
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We need, we don't need shame to be humble.
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We need humility.
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We don't need shame in order to change our behavior, recognize that we've done, we've hurt someone.
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That's empathy.
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And shame actively shuts down our ability to empathize in the brain.
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So I just think this, this, there's a false narrative that shame is good for you and that it changes your behavior.
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And it's coming to us from every single angle.
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And basically, it's just pushing a toxic narrative that's uh making us shame ourselves more and take projections of shame that's coming from absolutely everywhere.
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The family, businesses, advertisement everywhere.
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Right.
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And I mean, shame, like you said, it comes from everywhere.
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And having a domestic violence podcast that a lot of the listeners can relate with feeling shame at some point.
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Yeah, you know, the abuser is going to either falsify reasons of why you should feel shamed for whatever, you know, fake narrative or something that you truly did do.
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There's a shame that you carry of why did I stay in that relationship that long?
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How many people did I subject to this abuse?
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You know, were there other people in the home, including children, that I feel ashamed because I subjected them to that?
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And then just the shame of the fact that it happened to you.
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So now you've escaped the relationship, you're on your road to healing, and you still are ashamed to talk about what happened because you feel like that you are taking some ownership of that.
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So shame is a huge thing that a lot of listeners are going to.
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If I could just say one thing, Ingrid, you don't need shame.
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You don't need to shame yourself.
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You know, that's the narrative that we're told.
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You should be ashamed.
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Absolutely not.
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That's just continuing the cycle of what your uh partner, your abusive partner did to you.
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When you shame yourself, you are internalizing that voice and pitting it against yourself.
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So you absolutely should not shame yourself.
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Yes, recognize I've done harm here, I've damaged myself, but you do not need shame to become a good person.
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This is a huge lie that we're being gaslit with.
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You do not need shame in order to recognize mistakes that you've made in the past.
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Mistakes that you've made, and let's be real, we've all made mistakes, we've all hurt people, we've all hurt ourselves, but we don't need to shame ourselves about them.
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This is this is the idea.
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If I suffer enough, if I beat myself up enough, then I'll clean myself of my skin sins.
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You know, this is kind of the Christian idea, just beat myself and I'll be better.
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It doesn't work.
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You know, our our entire system is built around shame.
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If you look at the prison system, it's built on shaming.
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People go out of prison, they commit the crimes again, they commit worse crimes.
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Shame does not work.
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It does not work neurologically, it doesn't work societally, it works in the moment, but it does not work in the medium to long term.
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So we gotta recognize that shame is toxic and cut it out.
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Yeah, I agree with you in the shame that people feel, they're getting, it's again, like you mentioned, it comes from everywhere that society is saying you shouldn't be talking about these things because it's an embarrassing situation.
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And I do love what you said about you need humility, you need empathy, you don't necessarily need shame.
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Or not necessarily, you don't, you just don't need shame.
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Um, I'm really, really excited to get into more of uh your whole thought process behind all of this.
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But before we do, can you just go over some definitions, like what is covert narcissism, and then uh then go into you talk started talking about this inner narcissist.
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Okay, well, first before I talk about the covert type of narcissist, I'll talk about the the regular type of narcissist, the obvious, you're Donald Trump's, you know, the obvious kind of grandiose type of type of narcissist.
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They're they're grandiose, they're self-important, they're they're preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, and you know, they're deserving, they feel like they're special, they need admiration, there is a sense of entitlement there, they're they exploit people, um, they lack empathy, and they're envious of others, or you know, believe other people are envious of them.
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So that's that's that's the narcissist, that's kind of the DSM definition of the narcissist.
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And it's all driven by shame, by repress shame.
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Like this is what this they've they've decided because narcissists react defensively to criticism because they start they their their entire identity is built on shame and repress shame.
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So if you're if you're think about someone who's really confident and someone criticizes you, you're gonna be like, okay, whatever, you know, you're entitled to your opinion.
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But narcissists, no, they take it personally, they feel shame, they feel offended, and this is why they go on the attack.
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And you see that with your Donald Trumps and everyone like that.
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But narcissism is really, it comes from shame, it's rooted in shame.
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So that's that's narcissism.
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Now, these are the very overt types, the grandiose types are very obvious.
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Then you have the more covert types, which are more, oh, poor me, I'm so sorry, oh my God, this terrible thing has happened.
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Oh, everybody think about me and how poor I am.
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So it's kind of you're still being the center of attention, require admiration, and and you can, and that the the covert narcissist is still exploitative.
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They'll guilt and shame people for their feelings, they will lack empathy where they will put themselves first and they will experience envy of others, but it's in a more covert manner.
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It's not as obvious because they tend to be more, they're not, oh wow, I'm so amazing, I'm the best thing ever, you know, the big, beautiful, I'm the biggest, more beautiful thing in the world.
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You know, they're they're much more low-key.
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They will require to be the center of attention, but in a much more low-key, and often because they're kind, they they feel victimized or feel like, oh my god, my body is falling apart, I've got this happening, and they'll they'll deflect from talking about other people to their own pain or whatever is going on for them.
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So that's the covert narcissist.
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I have a quick question before you go on to the next one.
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Is it possible for someone to fluctuate between being an overt narcissist and a covert narcissist or have different uh, you know, perhaps they're covert with this individual, but then they're displaying like very obvious signs of narcissism to other people?
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Uh, usually it will be one or the other.
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So they usually don't have that much kind of model.
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Usually, if someone is grandiose, they're going to be grandiose the whole time, and vice versa.
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So this is why it's much, much less obvious.
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And you know, a lot of people's abusers, they might have been an overt narcissist, very obvious.
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Other people will see that that person is super toxic.
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And that can be validating.
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You know, you can be like, wow, other people see that your partner is abusive.
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So you don't feel so much that you are the problem.
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But when you've got a covert narcissist abuser, you can internalize it more.
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It can be even more um corrosive because you kind of think, well, I'm I'm the problem.
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My partner is loving, even though they may be manipulating you and kind of invalidating you constantly.
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And that's that's very damaging as well.
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Even more insidious in some ways, because you end up taking on more than your fair share of the blame, really.
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So though those are the that's the overt and the covert narcissist.
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And then you wanted me that what I realized is that I did is that I, you know, having been brought up in this dysfunctional family, I had been scapegoated.
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And like I said, the scapegoat, you've you're basically the landvil for the unprocessed shit of the family, the unprocessed intergenerational trauma.
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So you take all that on and you internalize it against yourself.
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You're like, I'm stupid, I'm ugly, and I'll never meant anything, I'll never have a partner, all those thoughts.
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This is what happens when you're in a kind of toxic environment, because it can't be, particularly if it's a parent, a partner, it can't be them.
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I must be the problem.
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This is how we cope.
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And we take shame and we kind of shame as a sword, but we also it also can be a shield.
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So we're like, we kind of defend or we think we can defend ourselves with shame.
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We're like, I'll kind of beat them to the punch.
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If I shame myself enough, then I'll become better and I can't be hurt by other people's shaming.
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That's kind of the childlike processing that happens.
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So this is where the shame originates and all that, all those negative, that super negative self-talk.
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It doesn't come from outer space, it comes from our environment.
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And this this uh this I call it, it's often called the inner critic in common parlance, you know, when we're taught that this voice is trying to protect you, you know.
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Oh, it doesn't want you to be on that podcast or do that thing because it's trying to keep you safe.
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But I've what I've recognized with my own inner critic is that no, just like the covert narcissist that tells you, you can't be a yoga teacher, you can't do that podcast, that's not them protecting you, that's them protecting them.
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Okay, so the the narcissist will punch you in the face, kick you in the balls, and then tell you, you made me do it.
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I'm doing it for your own sake.
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It's complete gaslighting.
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And yet, culturally, we're taught that this voice that we've internalized that shames us constantly, that it's some kind of protector, that it's something that it's trying to keep us safe, that it's trying to look after us.
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Absolutely not.
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That your higher self or whatever you want to call it, your guardian or whatever it is, your intuition, it will not shame you.
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That will not shame you.
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Wounded child will not shame you.
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This this is different.
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This is much more insidious.
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This is uh, this is basically it ticks all the boxes of the narcissist, but the call is coming from inside the house.
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And rather than being interpersonally exploitative, it exploits you and it has no empathy.
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And it's 100% self-serving.
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It's not trying to care for you, it's trying to destroy you, it's trying to keep you small and keep you tiny and keep you in your little box so it can be comfortable.
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And once I started to realize this and stopped coddling this voice, I started, I stopped feeding it and started taking my power back from it.
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And that was really the turning point for me because all my life I've been taught to sit down with this thing, send it love, and it's just a parasite.
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It's a parasite, just like if you have if you have a parasite in your gut, you don't send love to it.
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You take your freaking medicine, get the thing out of you.
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And this uh this shame voice, this inner narcissist is the same.
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The narcissist on the outside, they're the same, they're parasitic.
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They need narcissistic supply to be to survive because they are shells of people.
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They're sh they're a shell without you.
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They need your life force in order to survive.
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And this is really empowering.
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This is not a shaming idea.
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This really allows you to take back your power from this thing and stop calling it you because it's not you.
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It's insidious, it's a parasite, and you need to cut that thing off and take your power back.
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Do you think that it's so easy to allow what you're calling the inner narcissist to thrive because it's a comfortable space that you know individuals have been in, a victim of domestic violence where they've been, you know, abused mentally and psychologically by their abuser.
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And this is just a familiar space for them to continue that self-flagellation beyond the relationship.
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100% scapegoats go on to attract more scapegoating.
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So it's what you imprint from your childhood, you seek it because it's kind of your emotional home, your familiar zone.
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So you this is why people, you know, they they they go uh go out with someone who's abusive, marry someone who's abusive, break up with them, find another one that's exactly the same with a different face, and the same pattern plays out.
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Because it's not just about changing your partner, you've got to change the patterns inside you that that made you attracted to that energy, that uh that that um that level of control and manipulation.
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So this this isn't about blaming anyone.
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This is about you take back your power.
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You can take back your power.
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You don't need a new partner, you need to change the thoughts and beliefs and feelings that are that are attracting that kind of dynamic.
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And it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility to change that, and you can change it, you're not a victim.
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So, how do you change it?
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Well, first of all, you've got to recognize that shame is not is not useful ever, ever.
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And this is the this is the thing where really part ways with the conventional wisdom that says that shame is good for you.
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You know, even if you look at the English language, you have no shame.
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This is this is what we say to people when they're acting out or doing something that makes me feel uncomfortable.
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You have no shame, you're shameless, you you're shameful.
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So shame is really always about control.
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And like I said, it doesn't, there's this idea behind this terminology, shameless and shameful, that shame regulates your behavior, it makes you be a good boy or a good girl, and you have to ex you have to have some level of shame in order to be good, a good person.
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And that's completely that that doesn't even stand up to the facts because people acting out of repressed shame are often the most violent, the most dysfunctional.
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Like I talked about narcissists and narcissistic collectives and cults and things, they're they're they're narcissistic groups and families, dysfunctional families, they're operating out of repressed shame and they're very destructive and very damaging for everyone involved.
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So to say that we need shame in order to be good, it's a it's a collective mirage that we're all under in our society.
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And a kind of this a type of individualized shame that you're bad and that you it kind of comes that you're bad just for existing.
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It kind of has its roots in organized religion, um, particularly Christianity, and this idea of original sin.
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Before that, uh, we did have shame as well, like in groups that was kind of more honor-shaming.
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You know, if you step out of line or do something that that shames the family, then you would be shamed for that.
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Again, it's about control as well.
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But it's not, you're not shamed for who you are, you're shamed because you've done something that brings shame on the family.
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So in theory, there's a way to remedy it, and it's not for who you are, your identity.
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It's also super corrosive.
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It's also the the leading cause of, you know, onaliving, self-onaliving.
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And um, in the West, you know, where this is kind of the underpinning of our culture, this kind of individualized type of shame that says, you're a sinner, you're bad, you have to be punished, you have to experience pain in order to remedy yourself, in order to be good enough.
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There's this idea that you have to suffer.
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You know, this idea they have to suffer, they have to flagellate yourself in order to be better.
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And the truth is, change doesn't, shame doesn't help people change.
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It quite the contrary, it uh concretizes their behavior.
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You know, people tend to be, like I said, become more defensive in their position and they tend to change less.
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We need, we maybe we need guilt, we need a bit of guilt.
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We need to recognize that we we've done something wrong, not that we're bad, because when it comes to when when our identity feels attacked, that puts us into survival mode, that puts us into defensiveness.
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And it's very hard to climb out of that.
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So we don't need more shame, we need less shame.
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That's first of all.
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So recognize that shame is always corrosive, it doesn't help you grow, it doesn't help you be stronger, it helps you shrink and stay small and be a victim of life.
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And that's not to blame.
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I've lived with shame for a long time, so I know what it feels like, but you've got to break the trance of shame, really.
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And I have an acronym, B-R-E-A-K.
